Bless, Aid and Chant

[aVENGER_(RR)]

What is implemented then? Just to hit rolls? What about damage rolls? (And what is +5% on 1d4 or 1d6? Surely the game does not use fractions of hit points.)

 

The 5% bit is just fluff, it doesn't work that way at all. The spell merely adds a +1 bonus to Luck, which means +1 to hit and +1 to minimum dice damage in BG2 terms. Note that these bonuses are not visible on the character sheet, they can only be seen in the combat log.

 

That said, the Luck spell could probably use some fixing. Nythrun?

[devSin]

I'm not in favor of mentioning die or dice rolls in descriptions. Things like "damage roll of 6 on 1d8 for a successful attack made by an affected ally will be raised to a 7" and "a roll of 18 on a twenty-sided die would be raised to 19" should be appropriately alien to the average player. I'm not sure it's really clarifying or expanding on the information in any necessary way (so what if it doesn't go +1 over 20 or -1 from 1; nobody pays that much attention)?

 

Nythrun will have to confirm, but I'm not sure why the cap would be in there (going over 20 would be quite desirable on attack rolls with crappy THAC0, and they would have had to explicitly disallow it for no apparent reason).

[Kulyok]

Are you feeling quite well?

 

I'm pointing out that merging dialog.tlk changes into core fixes is a very bad idea. (With the exception of associating correct sounds, since, for example, Irenicus' horrible ogre soundset has been corrected in core fixes, so).

 

Not just because missing commas in new item/spell descriptions make me annoyed, but as a matter of principle - there are folks who trust dialogue changes in Fixpack/GTU/Aerie/Clan Dlan, and those who prefer not to install them. I believe in preserving this choice.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Nythrun will have to confirm, but I'm not sure why the cap would be in there (going over 20 would be quite desirable on attack rolls with crappy THAC0, and they would have had to explicitly disallow it for no apparent reason).

 

The attack roll bonus of Luck/Chant is not limited in the same way as the damage bonus of those effects. Unlike the damage bonus which can never exceed the maximum value on the dice, the attack roll bonus is, in fact, a straightforward +x bonus, though it doesn't show on the character sheet. The only way to see it is to watch the combat log rolls. For example:

 

Normal roll for a character with 17 STR (+1 to hit) wielding a +1 Longsword (another +1 to hit):

Attack Roll 10 + 2 = 12 : Hit

 

The same roll under the effects of the Luck spell which adds another +1 to hit (for a total of +3):

Attack Roll 10 + 3 = 13 : Hit

 

Therefore, the final result can easily exceed 20 on a high dice roll, for example:

Attack Roll 19 + 3 = 22 : Hit

 

Edit - for reference, I'll include the 2E AD&D definition of the Attack Roll as described on page 73 of the BG2 manual:

 

THE ATTACK ROLL

 

When an attack is made, the Armor Class of the opponent being attacked is subtracted from the THAC0 of the attacker. The resulting number is the what the attacker must “roll†in order to hit the opponent. This “roll of the die†is done with a d20, or twenty sided die, resulting in a number between 1 and 20. If the attacker rolls the number necessary or higher, then the attack is successful, and damage is done. If the attack is unsuccessful, then the attacker missed completely, or was unable to penetrate the opponent’s armor. For example, a 3rdlevel fighter fighter has a THAC0 of 18. He is attacking a hobgoblin with an AC of 5. The AC of the hobgoblin is subtracted from the THAC0, giving a “to hit†number of 13. If the fighter rolls a 13 or higher on the twenty-sided die, he hits successfully and does damage.

[devSin]

That's what I thought, but frabjous' description updates had the "never above X in 1dX." I wasn't prepared to say for certain; thanks for confirming.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I think he was referring to the damage bonus of Chant/Luck in which case he is correct. The maximum damage threshold of those two effects is indeed limited by the maximum dice value of a weapon. For example, if you have a character wielding a non-magical dagger (damage: 1d4) and grant him +10 to Luck (or Chant) he will still do 4 damage on each hit though his attack roll bonus would be increased by +10.

 

Still, this seems to work a bit oddly in practice. For example, if your standard bonus (from Strength and Weapon Enchantment) is +2 and you have +10 Luck, then on any roll of 12 and less you will get the full +10 bonus to the attack roll. However, if you roll an 16 then you will merely receive a +6 bonus to your attack roll totaling 22 (possibly the maximum naturally obtainable value as in 20 +2). OTOH, if you roll a natural 18 you will only receive a +4 bonus and if you roll a natural 20 the bonus drops to +2! Furthermore, if you now raise your Strength to 19 and (thus receive a +4 bonus to attack rolls) you will be able to go up to 24 with 10 Luck and a roll of 14 and higher. Weird... it is possible that the attack roll bonus from Luck/Chant is limited by the total value of the natural attack roll bonus i.e. STR + Weapon Enchantment + any other natural modifiers such as Invisibility/Stealth and possibly even AC vs. x modifiers. Hmm, I guess I'll cross-post this on IESDP.

[Salk]

I'm not in favor of mentioning die or dice rolls in descriptions.

 

I am not crazy about that either, to say the truth but I consider it rather marginal.

 

Soon we can perhaps amend frabjuos' new text for spells including aVenger's corrections and just remove references to dice rolls.

[Nythrun]

It's been a while since I've looked at opcodes.

 

However, I think you do always get the full bonus or penalty on to-hit rolls with chant and both flavors of luck, it's just not reflected accurately in the extended feedback (indeed, if your base THAC0 is good enough, after casting Chant/Luck you can end up with negatives in the extended feedback that aren't actually being applied). There's no fix for this other than ditching these effects and simulating them with others - which would no longer set STATE_CHANT and STATE_LUCK, so it's probably best just to live with it. Opcode 0x16 doesn't set STATE_LUCK anyway, but it's only ever used in one of the Wish spells, so no great loss.

 

I did staple saving throw and skill boni into Luck locally, but I'm pretty sure no one will ever notice whether we do in the Fixpack or not, as with a duration of three rounds there's scarcely any time to tell if it does anything at all

 

The range on Bless is 40 and the area of effect is a 30' disc. Discussion about how the Fixpack cannot be trusted to update this description should probably be split; it's likely to be either acrimonious or puzzling

[frabjous]

I think there are already several descriptions that mention die rolls -- indeed, the original descriptions of these spells already contain the phrase "dice rolls". And in this case, it's very hard to describe the functioning of the spell without mentioning them. If you can suggest a way of wording the same thing without mentioning them, however, it would certainly be worth considering.

 

Incidentally, my wording was inspired in part by the spell description for Luck found in IWD2, which is this:

 

Luck (Enchantment)

Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Range: Sight of Caster

Duration: 10 rounds

Casting Time: 2

Area of Effect: 1 creature

Saving Throw: None

 

The recipient of this spell gains a +1 bonus to luck for the duration of the spell. Luck weights die rolls in a character’s favor - with a +1 bonus to luck, if 1d8 is rolled, the effective range becomes 2-8 - a roll of 1 becomes 2, a roll of 4 becomes 5, and a roll of 8 stays at 8. Most importantly luck influences damage dice rolls, attack bonuses, saving throws, and skill checks, but luck also works in more subtle ways. This spell is not cumulative with repeat castings.

 

Of course, I understood that other bonuses and penalties can raise or lower the die roll above its usual boundaries. Perhaps this can be worded more clearly by clarifying that "these bonuses" will not move things outside their boundaries, e.g., in the case of Chant:

--------

Chant (Conjuration/Summoning)

Level: 2

Sphere: Combat

Range: 0

Duration: 1 turn

Casting Time: 1 round

Area of Effect: 30-foot radius

Saving Throw: None

 

By means of the chant spell, the priest brings special favor upon himself and his party, and causes harm to his enemies. When the chant spell is completed, all attack and damage rolls and saving throws made by those in the area of effect who are friendly to the priest gain + 1 bonuses, while those of the priest's enemies suffer -1 penalties. However, dice rolls will not be raised or lowered below their usual boundaries by these bonuses alone. For example, a damage roll of 6 on 1d8 for a successful attack made by an affected ally will be raised to a 7, a 7 will be raised to an 8, but an 8 will remain an 8. Other bonuses may still raise total damage above 8, however. Multiple chants are not cumulative.

-------------

Seems a little overly prolix, but might be clearer.

 

I still don't know to reword Luck, however, since I don't really understand what it affects (if anything) beyond To Hit rolls.

 

Then again, are we sure that Chant affects saving throws if Luck doesn't?

 

EDIT: Yeah, I was referring to damage. That's how this all started if you look at the first posts in the thread. I wasn't getting extra damage when using Chant together with Righteous Magic, so I thought the damage bonus wasn't being given at all. If it works differently for attack rolls and damage rolls, it's really going to complicate things.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

There's no fix for this other than ditching these effects and simulating them with others - which would no longer set STATE_CHANT and STATE_LUCK, so it's probably best just to live with it.

 

IWD1 does exactly that for the Luck spell and doesn't appear to use the Luck opcode at all. Then again there is no STATE_LUCK in IWD1's STATE.IDS.

 

 

Then again, are we sure that Chant affects saving throws if Luck doesn't?

 

AFAIK, the Chant opcode does not affect saving throws at all, and that's precisely why the spell was so crappy in the unmodded game. However, I believe that the G3 BG2 Fixpack added the proper saving throw bonus/penalty when the spell was reworked.

[Miloch]

I'm in favor of keeping it simple where possible, and if there's no need to mention dice rolls (even if other spells mention it), then why bother.

 

If someone really wants to know the fine-grained nitty-gritty, I think a better place for that is in the Fixpack readme/technical notes or whatever.

By means of the chant spell, the priest brings special favor upon himself and his party, and causes harm to his enemies. When the chant spell is completed, all those in the area of effect who are friendly to the priest gain + 1 bonuses to hit, damage and saving throws, while the priest's enemies suffer -1 penalties. However, this spell alone will not increase hit and damage beyond the normal maximum. Multiple chants are not cumulative.

The recipient of this spell gains a +1 bonus to luck for the duration of the spell. Luck influences certain outcomes in a character's favor, most notably, by increasing the minimum hit and damage (but not the maximum). This spell is not cumulative with repeat castings.

I did staple saving throw and skill boni into Luck locally, but I'm pretty sure no one will ever notice whether we do in the Fixpack or not, as with a duration of three rounds there's scarcely any time to tell if it does anything at all

It might be enough time to pick a lock you wouldn't normally be able to pick. Whether it's a "fix" or not I'm not going to get into, but I would probably install it either way if it's truer to PnP.

[Nythrun]

' date='Dec 8 2007, 06:57 AM' post='107213']IWD1 does exactly that for the Luck spell and doesn't appear to use the Luck opcode at all. Then again there is no STATE_LUCK in IWD1's STATE.IDS.

Hee. It doesn't look like the IWD devs bothered to use the STATE_FADE_OUT they swapped it for. STATE_LUCK isn't checked in unmodded BGII either though. One has to wonder why they bothered

 

' date='Dec 8 2007, 06:57 AM' post='107213']I believe that the G3 BG2 Fixpack added the proper saving throw bonus/penalty when the spell was reworked.

Yep

 

Whether it's a "fix" or not I'm not going to get into

You're probably not going to find an argument that it isn't - just an argument that it's low on the priority hierarchy

[CamDawg]

I did staple saving throw and skill boni into Luck locally, but I'm pretty sure no one will ever notice whether we do in the Fixpack or not, as with a duration of three rounds there's scarcely any time to tell if it does anything at all

Luck's description explicitly mentions it boosts saving throws, so if the opcode isn't doing it then they should be added. Duration is also two seconds longer than it should be, so it's about to get shorter:

 

// luck not providing saving throw bonuses; duration incorrect
COPY_EXISTING ~spwi209.spl~ ~override~
 READ_LONG  0x64 "abil_off"
 READ_SHORT 0x68 "abil_num"
 READ_LONG  0x6a "fx_off"
 SET "fx_delta" = 0
 FOR (index = 0; index < abil_num; index = index + 1 ) BEGIN // cycle thru abilities
READ_SHORT  ("%abil_off%" + 0x1e + (0x28 * "%index%")) "abil_fx_num"
READ_SHORT  ("%abil_off%" + 0x20 + (0x28 * "%index%")) "abil_fx_idx"
SET "abil_fx_idx" = ("%abil_fx_idx%" + "%fx_delta%")
WRITE_SHORT ("%abil_off%" + 0x20 + (0x28 * "%index%")) "%abil_fx_idx%"
// first fix duration while we're here
FOR (index2 = 0; index2 < abil_fx_num; index2 = index2 + 1) BEGIN
  READ_SHORT ("%fx_off%" +		(0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) "opcode"
  READ_LONG  ("%fx_off%" + 0x0e + (0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) "duration"
  PATCH_IF ("%duration%" = 20) BEGIN
	WRITE_LONG  ("%fx_off%" + 0x0e + (0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) 18
  END
  PATCH_IF ("%opcode%" = 133) BEGIN
	READ_ASCII ("%fx_off%" +		(0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) "clone" (0x30)
	FOR (index3 = 33; index3 < 38; index3 = index3 + 1) BEGIN
	  INSERT_BYTES   ("%fx_off%" +		(0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) 0x30 // new effect
		WRITE_ASCIIE ("%fx_off%" +		(0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) "%clone%"
		WRITE_SHORT  ("%fx_off%" +		(0x30 * ("%index2%" + "%abil_fx_idx%"))) "%index3%" // opcode: one of them thar saves
	END
	SET "fx_delta" = ("%fx_delta%" + 5)
	SET "index2" = ("%index2%" + 5)
	SET "abil_fx_num" = ("%abil_fx_num%" + 5)
  END
END
WRITE_SHORT  ("%abil_off%" + 0x1e + (0x28 * "%index%")) "%abil_fx_num%"
 END
 BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

 

I'm still a bit unclear from the thread, but do bless, chant, aid, or luck actually affect thieving skill rolls?

 

And I'm fine with frabjous's suggestions for the spell descripts. If you look at Aid, it's already got a bunch of mathematical exercises in its description.

 

Bless (Conjuration/Summoning)

Level: 1

Sphere: All

Range: 30 feet

Duration: 6 rounds

Casting Time: 1 round

Area of Effect: 30-foot radius

Saving Throw: None

 

Upon uttering the bless spell, the caster raises the morale of friendly creatures and any saving throw rolls they make against fear effects by + 1. Furthermore, it raises their attack and damage dice rolls by +1. The caster determines at what range (up to 60 yards) he will cast the spell. At the instant the spell is completed, it affects all creatures in a 50-foot cube centered on the point selected by the caster (thus, affected creatures leaving the area are still subject to the spell's effect; those entering the area after the casting is completed are not).

 

Chant (Conjuration/Summoning)

Level: 2

Sphere: Combat

Range: 0

Duration: 1 turn

Casting Time: 1 round

Area of Effect: 30-foot radius

Saving Throw: None

 

By means of the chant spell, the priest brings special favor upon himself and his party, and causes harm to his enemies. When the chant spell is completed, all attack and damage rolls and saving throws made by those in the area of effect who are friendly to the priest gain + 1 bonuses, while those of the priest's enemies suffer -1 penalties. However, these bonuses and penalties will not raise or lower dice rolls above or below their usual boundaries. For example, a damage roll of 6 on 1d8 for a successful attack made by an affected ally will be raised to a 7, a 7 will be raised to an 8, but an 8 will remain an 8. Other bonuses may still raise total damage above 8, however. Multiple chants are not cumulative.

 

Aid (Necromancy, Conjuration)

Level: 2

Sphere: Necromantic

Range: Touch

Duration: 1 round + 1 round/level

Casting Time: 5

Area of Effect: Creature touched

Saving Throw: None

 

The recipient of this spell gains the benefits similar to those of a bless spell (+ 1 to attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws -- these benefits stack with those of the bless spell) and a special bonus of 1d8 additional hit points for the duration of the spell. The aid spell enables the recipient to actually have more hit points than his full normal total. The bonus hit points are lost first when the recipient takes damage; they cannot be regained by curative magic. Example: A 1st-level fighter has 8 hit points, suffers 2 points of damage (8 - 2 = 6), and then receives an aid spell that gives 5 additional hit points. The fighter now has 11 hit points, 3 of which are temporary. If he is then hit for 7 points of damage, 4 normal hit points and all 3 temporary hit points are lost. He then receives a cure light wounds spell that heals 4 points of damage, restoring him to his original 8 hit points.

 

Luck (Enchantment/Charm)

Level: 2

Range: 10 yards

Duration: 3 rounds

Casting Time: 2

Area of Effect: 1 creature

Saving Throw: None

 

The recipient of this spell is lucky in everything that he does for the next 3 rounds. He receives a 5% bonus to any of his actions. This includes saving throws, to hit chances, thieving skills, etc. This means that dice rolls are raised by 5% of their maximum value, although a die roll will not be raised above the highest value normally possible for it, so that, for example, a roll of 18 on a twenty-sided die would be raised to 19, a 19 would be raised to 20 but a 20 would remain a 20.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I'm still a bit unclear from the thread, but do bless, chant, aid, or luck actually affect thieving skill rolls?

 

They don't.

 

As mentioned elseware, these opcodes merely provide +1 to hit and +1 to minimum damage in BG2.

[Nythrun]

I can't remember offhand if the morale raising mentioned in the Bless description is spurious or not - I'd have to double check and see if I wasted my time adding that.

 

Saving throw rolls versus fear effects do not exist, naturally.

 

Don't forget to change the range and area of effect in the text block as well. 50' cube - let's all go get some graph paper now