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Weapon styles revision (EE-only)


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#1 Ogi

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:11 AM

I didn't noticed such mod in revisions, so if it isn't there what are yours propositions about changing weapon styles? Below are mine, quickly thrown together so don't expect any revelations.

Sword and shield - currently only useful at very low levels later it's waste of points, needs some more long term utility. So perhaps: (+) -1 AC, 5% physical resistance (++) -2 AC, 10% physical resistance.

Single weapon - Even worse than S&S style, if you want use bows you usually go with two hander as reserve, AC bonus is useful only very early.
(+) +1 to hit, +5% crit chance (++) +2 to hit, +10% crit chance

Two handed - Two handed weapons are rather underwhelming even with IR 2d6 and 1d8 don't make that much difference when you need sacrifice 1APR or AC. I don't know if there is possibility of granting 150% str bonus to two handers.
(+) +2dmg -2speed (++) +4dmg -4speed
This may look bit much but its only max additional 20dmg with 5 attacks.

Two weapons - As a fighter you usually ignore (+++) because 2 thaco off hand difference doesn't matter that much and you have more pressing priorities. So it can be removed without to much problems.
No proficiency: -4/-6 (+) -2/-4 (++) -0/-2

I'm not sure about two handed style, removal of crit chance was made to make it different from single weapon style, but perhaps dmg bonus is to great? Hmm +1/+2 dmg looks to weak on other hand... Any opinions?

#2 yarpen

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:43 PM

- I'm all for removing the third point in 2-weapons fighting style and change proposed by Ogi.
- Single weapon fighting style should be the one giving you some:
* minor AC bonus
* minor Attack Rolls bonus
* major Attack Speed bonus
- 2-handed weapon fighting style should add some damage and crit chance.
- Weapon and Shield, welp, should grant Armor Class and physical resistances I guess.

#3 Ardanis

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:50 PM

Physical resistance is not doable, everything else mentioned here is. We're also not limited to the existing 2-2-2-3 number of max points.

Sword and Shield:
* - 2 vs missiles
** - 2 vs missiles, 1 AC
*** - 2 vs missiles, 1 AC, 1 thaco
**** - 2 vs missiles, 1 AC, 1 thaco, 1 dmg
***** - 2 vs missiles, 2 AC, 2 thaco, 1 dmg

Two Weapon
* - -4 thaco, -1 dmg
** - -3 thaco, -1 dmg
*** - -2 thaco
**** - -1 thaco, 1 AC
***** - 2 AC
-2 extra thaco for left arm.

Two Handed Weapon

* - 2 SF
** - 3 SF, 1 dmg
*** - 4 SF, 2 dmg
**** - 5 SF, 3 dmg, 5% crit
***** - 6 SF, 4 dmg, 5% crit

Single Handed Weapon

* - 1 thaco, 1 AC
** - 1 thaco, 2 AC, 5% crit
*** - 2 thaco, 2 AC, 5% crit
**** - 2 thaco, 2 AC, 10% crit
***** - 3 thaco, 2 AC, 10% crit


2DA              V1.0
0
                 DAMAGE_RIGHT DAMAGE_LEFT THAC0_RIGHT THAC0_LEFT AC_BASE    AC_MISSILE SPEED      CRITICALROLL 
TWOHANDED-0      0          0          0          0          0          0          0          0          
SINGLEWEAPON-0   0          0          0          0          0          0          0          0          
SWORDANDSHIELD-0 0          0          0          0          0          0          0          0          
TWOWEAPON-0      0          0          4          8          0          0          0          0          
TWOHANDED-1      1          0          0          0          0          0          -2         1          
SINGLEWEAPON-1   0          0          0          0          -1         0          0          1          
SWORDANDSHIELD-1 0          0          0          0          0          -2         0          0          
TWOWEAPON-1      0          0          2          6          0          0          0          0          
TWOHANDED-2      1          0          0          0          0          0          -4         1          
SINGLEWEAPON-2   0          0          0          0          -2         0          0          1          
SWORDANDSHIELD-2 0          0          0          0          0          -4         0          0          
TWOWEAPON-2      0          0          0          4          0          0          0          0          
TWOWEAPON-3      0          0          0          2          0          0          0          0          

"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#4 Kalindor

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:19 PM

It might be rather cool to allow up to 3-4 stars in the weapon styles to give fighters, etc. extra room to specialize. I am strongly in favor of making single weapon style more appealing as well. 10% crit would be a welcome addition. Maybe even -2 THAC0 instead of -1 THAC0 and -1AC at one star to make it very appealing to level 1 fighters/thieves in BG1. -2 THAC0 is a big deal outside of Candlekeep and would actually make me consider taking it instead of a shield.

Edited by Kalindor, 24 December 2013 - 12:29 AM.


#5 Ardanis

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:20 AM

Oh, and we can certainly allow Cavaliers to take five ranks in shield style.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#6 kreso

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:23 AM

Cool, but it's EE only :( .
Otoh, I don't see anything wrong with Single Weapon Style as it is....it's the only way apart cheating on DEX one can have -26 AC.

#7 Demivrgvs

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:01 AM

Well, I'd need to know a couple of things first, such as:
- is this possible outside of BGEE using ToBEx?
- did they changed how weapon style affect criticals? Because I'm 99% sure that in vanilla single and 2handed weapon styles actually doubles the effective critical hit range, they do not grant a mere +5%.

Then I'd discuss if we truly need to expand weapon styles up to +++++. At first sight I'd say +++ is enough, as higher levels of proficiency would require really too many proficiency points imo, and we would risk to run out of ideas to fill them (e.g. I don't like Arda's suggestion to make S&S improve thac0/dmg) or unbalance the game (e.g. we cannot have S&S grant tons of AC bonuses, unless we want to "exploiting" it for specific classes, such as allowing only Cavaliers to get even more AC from shields).

Single Weapon
This and SS were the only two underperforming weapon styles imo. I would probably suggest to make it grant a small but very appealing thac0 bonus, but I'm tempted to suggest making its AC bonus limited to melee weapons.

* +1 bonus to attack rolls, +1 bonus to AC (none vs. missiles?)
** +2 bonus to attack rolls, +2 bonus to AC (none vs. missiles?)
*** +2 bonus to attack rolls, +2 bonus to AC (none vs. missiles?), +5% chance to score criticals (even better if it's 2x)

Sword & Shield
I think * and ** were kinda good within BG1, but obviously don't have enough appeal for BG2. That being said, with IR's Revised Shields (not to mention the specific changes to magical shields) I do think using a shield has become truly effective by itself, even without S&S style proficiency. A good third step with something really valuable is enough imo to make the style a good pick and not a waste of points for BG2. I would not improve * and ** instead because I fear it would make shield users really too good within the early stages of BG1.

* +2 bonus to AC vs. missiles
** +4 bonus to AC vs. missiles
*** +4 bonus to AC vs. missiles, +1 bonus to AC

Two-handed weapon
I would simply add a small boost to dmg. I would not boost speed factor too much (e.g. +6) because I personally don't like the idea of allowing a greatsword (sf 10) to become faster than a longsword (sf 5), it already gets fast enough provided you get ** in this weapon style.

* +1 bonus to damage rolls, +2 bonus to weapon speed factor
** +2 bonus to damage rolls, +4 bonus to weapon speed factor
*** +2 bonus to damage rolls, +4 bonus to weapon speed factor, +5% chance to score criticals (even better if it's 2x)

Two weapons
This was by far the most powerful pick in vanilla, but I think we did a good job with IR to heavily improve the appeal of both shields and 2handed weapons (I could not do a thing to improve Single Weapon style before now though).

Note: A character wielding two weapons without a slot in this weapon class would suffer a -4 penalty with the main weapon and a -8 penalty with the off weapon.
* attack rolls penalty reduced to -2/-6, -1 penalty to dmg (off hand only?)
** attack rolls penalty reduced to -0/-4, -1 penalty to dmg (off hand only?)
*** attack rolls penalty reduced to -0/-2, no dmg penalty

#8 Ogi

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:23 AM

Critical hits are scored on 20 (d20) so it's 5% chance to crit, doubling this means you crit on 19-20 so this is 10% chance or another 5%. On 18-20 it will be 15% etc.
Extending weapon styles to 5 points will run into some problems:
1)how much WS for classes, fighter gets 5, but what about rangers, paladins, bards or thieves?
2)Overspecialisation, already fighter are heavily locked into single weapon this will only made things even worse.
3)On lower levels there isn't simply enough points, so this will be for high level characters.

Overall this is why I'm for only 2 points for each style, each style with it's own... style I guess. So single weapon - precision (+hit/+crit), shield - defense (+AC/+?), two hander - damage(+dmg) , two weapons - offense (+APR).

#9 Demivrgvs

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:17 AM

Critical hits are scored on 20 (d20) so it's 5% chance to crit, doubling this means you crit on 19-20 so this is 10% chance or another 5%. On 18-20 it will be 15% etc.

What I meant was that while testing weapons with the Keen property for IR, I tested how weapon styles affected the % chance, and I'm pretty sure the result was the following:
- normally criticals are scored on a natural 20
- IR's weapons with +5 or +10% chance to score criticals make those weapons score a critical hit on 19-20 and 18-20 respectively
- when using single or 2handed style those IR's Keen weapons score criticals on 17-20 and 15-20 respectively, which means the weapon style does not add a 5% chance but doubles the current % value

#10 Ardanis

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:26 PM

As the title (edited by me) suggests, this is purely EE stuff. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't work on it, right?

At first sight I'd say +++ is enough

I'm quite fine with that, frankly.
Also I'd let everyone take up to ** in whatever style they wish, while *** is reserved for warriors.
"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#11 Dakk

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:14 AM

Well, I'd need to know a couple of things first, such as:
- is this possible outside of BGEE using ToBEx?

As the title (edited by me) suggests, this is purely EE stuff. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't work on it, right?

I understand this is possible to mod as-is in EE, but is there any word if TobEx can allow this in original?



#12 Ardanis

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:30 AM

Not to my knowledge.


"Uguu~ Boku Ayu."

Before you start breaking wall tiles with your bare fists, ask yourself first - do you truly need it?

#13 Dakk

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:21 PM

Aight, thnx for the answer :thumbsup:



#14 yarpen

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:30 PM

What I meant was that while testing weapons with the Keen property for IR, I tested how weapon styles affected the % chance, and I'm pretty sure the result was the following:
- normally criticals are scored on a natural 20
- IR's weapons with +5 or +10% chance to score criticals make those weapons score a critical hit on 19-20 and 18-20 respectively
- when using single or 2handed style those IR's Keen weapons score criticals on 17-20 and 15-20 respectively, which means the weapon style does not add a 5% chance but doubles the current % value 

 

Honestly, I'd like that kind of behavior in case of Single Weapon Fighting Style while I don't find it fitting for 2-Handed ones. Personally:

 

You can get up to Specialization in weapon fighting style.

 

Shields

At proficiency, you gain +1 bonus to Armor Class.

At specialization, you gain +2 bonus to Armor Class and additional +2 bonus versus Missles.

 

Two Weapons

At proficiency, you are fighting with -2/-4 penalties.

At specialization, you are fighting with -0/-2 penalties.

 

2-Handed Weapons

At proficiency, you gain +2 bonus to Damage Rolls.

At specialization, you gain +4 bonus to Damage Rolls and +2 bonus to Attack Speed Factor.

 

1-Handed Weapon

At proficiency, you gain +5% chance for Critical Strike.

At specialization, your chance for Critical Strike is doubled.



#15 yarpen

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

What about renaming these fighting styles. Those titles are just... crude. "Sword and Shield", like seriously?

We are talking about proficiencies here!

 

Shield

Two-Handed Weapon

One-Handed Weapon

Two Weapons

 

I'd propose limiting them to Specialization. I know it buffs Two Weapons style, but whatever.

 

Shield

At proficiency, grants +1 bonus to Armor Class and additional +1 bonus versus Missles.

At specialization, grants +2 bonus to Armor Class and additional +2 bonus versus Missles.

 

Note: I'd love to have something like "specialization grants you shieldbash ability" but that's just not possible. Same as "you don't suffer penalties from wielding Tower Shields". Still, you play with shields when you want to be the ultimate defender. Even if bonus is small, when together with heavy armor and tower shield it makes you a juggernaut on the battlefield.

 

Two-Handed Weapon

At proficiency, grants +2 bonus to Damage Rolls.

At specialization, grants +4 bonus to Damage Rolls and +2 bonus to Attack Speed.

 

Note: You are here to crush skulls and be a brute. Either when you swing Halberd or 2-H Sword, you mean business. You have no finesse to find vital spots for critical strikes, but your hits hurt as hell. And second point fixes your biggest issue which is your lack of speed.

 

One-Handed Weapon

At proficiency, grants +5% chance for Critical Strike.

At specialization, doubles the chance for Critical Strike.

 

Note: Let's make it a good choice for all kind of Kensais and truly damage-oriented characters. That'd really work well with all kind of Katana/Swords fantasy. 

 

Two Weapons

At proficiency, decreases penalties to -2/-4.

At specialization, decreases penalties to -0/-2.

 

Note: I hate myself for even considering this kind of buff for the cheesiest and most hated fighting style. I still have nightmares about my brother playing Katana/Hammer Barbarian. 





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