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#46 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:48 PM

I'd say, if mage can learn how to throw a dagger or use a dagger in melee, mage should be capable to learn how to use crossbow (and take care of the weapon). After all, mages are about intellect and learning, aren't they?

Well, I am not entirely against allowing them... but think it in terms such as "balance" etc... if you want to make a Mage allowed to use Crossbows, you might as well throw in all the bows, for everyone and their dogs, and every other weapon ala "if warrior can use, then mages plah plah plah can use"... but not a single "Mages can use X bows 2" component cause that will be way too fine and ridiculous.
 

... physically undemanding enough to be operated by large numbers of conscript soldiers ...

Funny, the word conscription dates to the French revolution(1790)... is only effective in Nations, like places where there's "universal compulsory education", not in small townships, which is usually where the Dungeons and Dragons campaigns take place. Cause there's usually monsters about every 50-100 feet in any direction. Yes, the game is ridiculous, but that's part of the world, and the fun.
You can't have x conscripts without them speaking the same x language. Which invalidates your whole thing from Wikipedia. Yep, went there.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 04 August 2017 - 02:59 PM.

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#47 Mirandel

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 03:54 PM

 

I'd say, if mage can learn how to throw a dagger or use a dagger in melee, mage should be capable to learn how to use crossbow (and take care of the weapon). After all, mages are about intellect and learning, aren't they?

Well, I am not entirely against allowing them... but think it in terms such as "balance" etc... if you want to make a Mage allowed to use Crossbows, you might as well throw in all the bows, for everyone and their dogs, and every other weapon ala "if warrior can use, then mages plah plah plah can use"... but not a single "Mages can use X bows 2" component cause that will be way too fine and ridiculous.

 

 

Nobody is talking about bows (for the reason from Wiki - bows require skills). We are talking about crossbows only as a universal weapon. And speaking of balance - NWN2 is doing just fine with mages and crossbows. I see no reason not to add every class in the game ability to use it in BG either.
 



#48 Angel

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 01:26 AM

Nobody is talking about bows (for the reason from Wiki - bows require skills). We are talking about crossbows only as a universal weapon. And speaking of balance - NWN2 is doing just fine with mages and crossbows. I see no reason not to add every class in the game ability to use it in BG either.


Mm, perhaps it would be best to only make light crossbows universal, and leave the more specialized heavy crossbows restricted. That is what my original mod did if I recall correctly.  It should not be hard to recreate, just check if it's a crossbow or bolt, and if a thief can use it.  If yes to both, allow a mage to use it as well.  Clerics should probably still be restricted due to the ban on edged and piercing weapons, and IMHO such a mechanical weapon designed for hunting game doesn't quite fit druids very well either.

 

Oh what the hell, I'll write it up. :-)

 

EDIT: And done!  Here is my version.

https://github.com/A...t_crossbows.tpa

 

(If you want to try my 'Made in Heaven' mod, please feel free.  But do keep in mind that it's still in full development and probably has lots of bugs still.)


Edited by Angel, 05 August 2017 - 02:32 AM.


#49 khelban12

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 05:05 AM

I would like to suggest two component proposals (i already mentioned one of them in the other thread). Over the years, i have read them being mentioned on several fora so i guess they are not possible because the engine does not permit it(in ee maybe they are possible):

1) For "light" weapons like daggers, clubs, short swords, etc, use dexterity for THAC0 and Damage IF it would give a greater bonus than strength.

2) Limit the number of attacks based on the Weapon's Speed Factor. A combat round is split into 10 segments. When a weapon has a SF of 7, supposedly you need a time of 7/10 of a round in order to swing it because it is heavy. How is it possible to swing it 4 times in that time ? I would love to limit the APR based on the weapon's SF. That way, you need a weapon with a SF <= 5 in order to have 2 APR, a SF <= 3 to have 3APR, etc.

#50 Angel

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 06:45 AM

I would like to suggest two component proposals (i already mentioned one of them in the other thread). Over the years, i have read them being mentioned on several fora so i guess they are not possible because the engine does not permit it(in ee maybe they are possible):

1) For "light" weapons like daggers, clubs, short swords, etc, use dexterity for THAC0 and Damage IF it would give a greater bonus than strength.

2) Limit the number of attacks based on the Weapon's Speed Factor. A combat round is split into 10 segments. When a weapon has a SF of 7, supposedly you need a time of 7/10 of a round in order to swing it because it is heavy. How is it possible to swing it 4 times in that time ? I would love to limit the APR based on the weapon's SF. That way, you need a weapon with a SF <= 5 in order to have 2 APR, a SF <= 3 to have 3APR, etc.

 

Don't know about EE, but in non-EE these are definitely not possible within the engine (at least, not without engine hacks).



#51 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:05 AM

#1 is possible, only in the EEs. I made a proof-of-concept mod for it once... but what happened is, the game is so full of STR bonuses that STR would end up being the stat that is used anyway. Even when character has the 'finesse' feat and can use DEX-based thac0 bonuses, the STR-based bonuses were almost always used anyway. It ended up being a LOT of effort for something with almost zero impact on the game. Instead I just revised the stats themselves and split the melee thac0 bonus between STR and DEX, so that they are both equally important for melee thac0.

#2 is veeeery interesting, and now it has my wheels turning. But I don't think it's possible to cap APR in that way, I don't think APR is a readable stat. Not to mention that weapon speeds might be inconsistent, and subject to change by mods. And how do you handle dual-wielding? Etc. Unless I'm missing something it would be an absolute nightmare to implement, and after all that work most players would just cry "nerf!" and not appreciate it.

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Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#52 lynx

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:00 AM

I'll add #2 on our idea list. But I agree, it needs some tweaking, maybe taking only half of the speed into account.


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#53 Ulb

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:03 AM

I've got a suggestion though it's not a new feature but an update to an existing one:

 

Allow users to specify which stronghold is made available to which classes.

 

The current version of this tweak (either all strongholds are free for all or only multi class characters get any love at all) is far too rudimentary for my taste.

I want the bard, fighter and thief strongholds to be available to all classes, allow bards to keep the mage stronghold and fighter/clerics to do the paladin one. Someone else might want a totally different selection.

 

I get that it might get a bit complex coding wise and would take a bit of time for users to go through (though it could be offered as a sub-component next to the two existing options) but I think it would a real improvement.

 

 

 

Also, I fully support this suggestion.
 

 

Restore original NPCLEVEL.2DA and disable the scripted XP matching to that of Player1.

 

 

The current system always felt a bit like cheating to me and removed the need to plan which NPCs to take for how long.


Edited by Ulb, 10 August 2017 - 09:03 AM.


#54 khelban12

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 10:16 AM

But I don't think it's possible to cap APR in that way, I don't think APR is a readable stat.

Maybe it can be externalized in some 2da or in the lua ini file. I am not familiar with the EE engine at all.
 

Not to mention that weapon speeds might be inconsistent, and subject to change by mods.

Would this pose a problem ? Whatever is the weapon's SF, that will be used. A mod that changes the SF for a weapon will have the description updated so the user will know it.
 

And how do you handle dual-wielding?

Yeah this is a problem. Since equipping an offhand weapon gives an extra attack even to classes which are otherwise limited to 1APR (like thief), one way would be not to take the offhand in to account at all and limit only the "main hand APR".
 

Unless I'm missing something it would be an absolute nightmare to implement, and after all that work most players would just cry "nerf!" and not appreciate it.

I agree. It would be a niche feature for crazy people like me :)

#55 subtledoctor

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 11:51 AM

Don't get me wrong, it sounds super cool and I like it. I just don't think there's any way to implement it in a way that would satisfy the standards of this mod. In fact it sounds like the kind of thing I would put in my mod. :p

Like, I might take all melee weapons with high speed factor and drop them to base 0.5 APR. bump weapons with low speed factor to 1.5 APR. And give daggers an extra 0.5 APR on top of that. So a 13th level fighter with GM in daggers and dual-wielding two of them would have 5 APR base. 4.5 with two short swords, 4 with long swords, and 3.5 with two bastard swords (2.5 with a 2-handed sword).

But that's just some random guy's (me) idea of a cool tweak - very different from the idea proposed above.

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#56 qwerty1234567

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:32 AM

I've got a suggestion though it's not a new feature but an update to an existing one:

 

Allow users to specify which stronghold is made available to which classes.

 

The current version of this tweak (either all strongholds are free for all or only multi class characters get any love at all) is far too rudimentary for my taste.

I want the bard, fighter and thief strongholds to be available to all classes, allow bards to keep the mage stronghold and fighter/clerics to do the paladin one. Someone else might want a totally different selection.

 

I get that it might get a bit complex coding wise and would take a bit of time for users to go through (though it could be offered as a sub-component next to the two existing options) but I think it would a real improvement.

You can just refuse the strongholds.


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