magic resistance overhaul

[subtledoctor]

Modding afficianados, I seek your guidance and advice!

I have a very rough working mod to eliminate the probability-based magic resistance mechanic from the game. (Well, mostly eliminate it. There will still be a couple pockets of it.) My brain is turning to mush trying to com up with cool and balanced ideas for every item. Let me know what you think of these ideas, and help me fill in the "???"s below. Remember that some of these items give only ~5% MR, it's almost an afterthought, so the replacement bonuses don't need to be very big.

Here's what I've got so far:

Creatures: every creature with any magic resistance has its MR dropped to zero; in its place, they will get a +3 bonus to saves vs. Breath Weapon, Rod/Staff/Wand, and Petrify/Polymorph; a +6 bonus to saves vs. Spells; and a 40% resistance to pure magic damage. (Eventually I'll make this a tiered system, where creatures with low MR will get smaller bonuses and creatures with high MR will get bigger bonuses.)

 

Classes: Monks and Wizard Slayers will not get any MR, at all. Instead they will get a +1 bonus to all saving throws at 1st level, and again every four levels thereafter. By epic levels, they will basically never miss a save.

 

Spells: I'm going to create an easy-to-edit list of spells that will determine whether each one will be subject to MR or will bypass MR. This seems useless at first, because there is no more MR in the game, right? But I'll include an option to let creatures keep their MR, in which case this will matter.

 

The "Magic Resistance" spell will still work as advertised, and I'll leave "Lower Resistance" in the game - if only just to deal with the MR spell. It will be just another form of temporary protection spellcasters can use, and another method of dispelling those temporary protections.

Items: Because SCS AI will not cast a Fireball at you if it detects high MR, the only way to make the above changes fun and fair is to remove most of the sources of MR available to the PC. I'll edit all items that grant MR, as outlined below.

Potion of Magic Protection = +5 bonus to save vs. Spells, and complete immunity to pure magic damage.

Cloak of Balduran = +1 to STR and CHA.

Robes of the Archmagi = +5 bonus to saves vs. Spells

Enkidu's Armor = 5% elemental resistance

Human Flesh Armor = +6 bonus to saves vs. Spells.

Silver Dragon Armor = 50% cold and electricity resistance.

Drow Elven Chain +3 = +5% resistance to all elemental damage

Shield of the Lost = +5% elemental resistance

Amulet of Power = complete immunity to pure magic damage.

Amulet of (5%) Magic Resistance = 5% resistance to all elemental damage.

Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance = 10% elemental resistance

Amulet of the Seldarine = 10% elemental resistance

Holy Symbols of Helm/Lathander/Talos = immunity to disease/blindness/deafness/silence

Ring of Gaxx = 5% elemental resistance

Carsomyr +5 = +6 bonus to saves vs. Spells.

Carsomyr +6 = +10 bonus to saves vs. Spells (you'll never fail a save vs. spells with this sword).

Purifier +4 = +6 bonus to saves vs. Death.

Purifier +5 = +10 bonus to saves vs. Death (never fail a save vs. death... contrast with Carsomyr).

Hindo's Doom +3 = added +3 bonus to saves vs. Death.

Hindo's Doom +4 = +6 bonus to saves vs. Death (description says immunity to Death magic, this will catch any Death effects not covered by specific immunities, and any effects modded to use a save vs. Death).

Flail of Ages +5 = +3 bonus to saves vs. Petrification (fits well with its Free Action power).

Flame of the North +2 = +3 bonus to saves vs. Breath.

Gram the Sword of Grief = poison immunity

Sword of Balduran = +3 to movement rate

[kreso]

Yey, no more MR! Cool.

Anyhow, there are spells to nullify it, you might want (need!) to alter them as well.

I don't know what code you're using, but be careful with IR potions - they use 146 for effects, unlike vanilla game (iirc Full Plate Packing Steel mod busts out on that since you get both 146 + effects of FPPS).

 

Per items:

Frankly, I think that 5-10% MR bonus can be removed w/o adding anything. There are exceptions (5% MR amulet with no extra features - 5% to *all* resistances?) but in most cases it won't really matter.

In the same line of thinking, Item Revisions already removes MR from many items (robes of Archmagi, Ages, Power Amulet, Shield of the Lost etc.)

Balduran - casts Farsight if it's useful for an explorer.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Flame of the North +2 = (Fire resistance? It's already so common! Maybe the opposite, cold resistance, since it's from the north. Or, how about physical damage resistance?)

You really don't want to go with the physical resistance. Cold, or Cold and Acid, or all the three elements(, as in Fire, as poison is really kinda all or nothing, as the 10% poison resistance does nothing to the 1/hp per second poisoning effect).

Make darn sure that you have a couple of people test this before you release it..

[subtledoctor]

Yey, no more MR! Cool.

Anyhow, there are spells to nullify it, you might want (need!) to alter them as well.

I don't know what code you're using, but be careful with IR potions - they use 146 for effects, unlike vanilla game (iirc Full Plate Packing Steel mod busts out on that since you get both 146 + effects of FPPS).

 

Oh yeah - I'll have to deal with those spells. Pierce Magic and Pierce Shield are easy, I've already changed PS's secondary effects similar to how SR does, I can do the same thing for PM. I think Lower Resistance is the only other one, right? It would be cool to change that to reduce elemental resistances (cast it on a red dragon, then Fireball it to death!) but SCS wouldn't handle it. SCS should only use LR if it detects MR, so if there's no MR, I guess I can just eliminate the spell entirely.

 

I hadn't noticed any bad interaction between IR and FPPS, and I'm playing with them together right now (but I'm only using FPPS's main component)... I'll have to take a closer look.

 

Frankly, I think that 5-10% MR bonus can be removed w/o adding anything. There are exceptions (5% MR amulet with no extra features - 5% to *all* resistances?) but in most cases it won't really matter.

In the same line of thinking, Item Revisions already removes MR from many items (robes of Archmagi, Ages, Power Amulet, Shield of the Lost etc.)

Balduran - casts Farsight if it's useful for an explorer.

 

5% to all resistances is actually pretty good for that amulet - I might not even have to change the name/description then!

 

I didn't realize IR took MR away in so many cases - it actually *adds* MR to certain items (Helm of Balduran, Robe of the Weave). Bah, as usual, I'll have to make a mod component that does a hundred things, but if one of Demi's mods is present, does a hundred different things Heh heh, totally worth it, love Demi's stuff.

 

Make darn sure that you have a couple of people test this before you release it..

 

I thought releasing is so that people can test it?? I'll probably release something here for people to play around with, and once it's working well, add it to my mega tweak mod.

[kreso]

FPPS patches potions as well (it's in thebiglist or whatever the name of the file is). In case of IR, it shoud patch spells (potnxx.spl) but it doesn't; so you end up with both IR bonuses and FPPS bonuses, which both stack while IR's bonuses are undispellable while FPPS ones are dispellable.

Just check for Potion of Defense, you'll see what I mean.

Yea, there are instances where MR is added, but it's usually minimal (apart Weave robe) so I guess you can eliminate it alltogeter. I for one wouldn't cry over 5% MR lost on an item; I simply don't care about MR protection since I don't reload when I play.

SCS "cheats" when lowering your MR. It's usually done via 3xLower Resistance trigger. Mages will *never* have or use this trigger if MR doesn't exist on you - they'll simply cast something else liek 3xChain Lightning, so you won't be messing anything with it.

On a sidenote, you should also alter Hell Trials reward (+10% MR) and Lum the Mad machine (+5% MR). I don't know if Revised Pocket Plane challenge from Asension rewards add MR; I think not.

There's also vanilla game monks/WS. And SR's Dispelling Screen (albeit I don't really like MR there anyway).

Anyways, this is a rather big undertaking.

[subtledoctor]

I keep going back and forth about it. Originally I planned to substitute elemental resistance for MR (elemental resustance is basically a form of magic protection in this game, because magical effects are the only things that cause elemental damage.)

But some creatures already have 100% resistance to an element, and raising that above 100% is not preferable, so there would have to be tons of exceptions etc. Basically, a nightmare.

Doing a very simplistic substitution of save bonuses makes it a *lot* easier, though it's less ideal. And anyway it's certainly better than the annoying MR mechanic. So for the moment, I'm calling creatures "good enough."

Status: Done!

Step 2: Items are the next big headache, as described in the first post. But I'm getting through them with some quick-and-dirty applications of ALTER_EFFECT and ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT.

Status: Done!

Then I'll go through with IR installed and look for any special situations.

Status: Done!

Step 3 is dealing with classes, specifically Wizard Slayer and Monk. I already have a WS variant with no MR; my very simple idea is, grant save bonuses instead, for a *natural* resistance to magic instead of the unexplained *supernatural* MR benefit; and balance it by letting them use magic items.

Monks are already walking piles of munchkiny special abilities; you could probably convert their MR to save bonuses and do nothing else, and they'd be fine.

Status: 40% done.

Step 4 is spells. Pierce Magic and Pierce Shield are easy to modify, and Lower Resistance can be deleted entirely. Dispelling Screen and clerics' Magic Resistance aren't even so bad - I don't hate the idea of letting players get some MR (maxing out at 35-40%) as long as it can't be stacked to infinity and is only temporary. In fact maybe LR/PM/PS should keep their MR-Lowering effects just to counter these spells. (Though I don't know if they would work against Dispelling Screen.)

I don't know if Lum's or the hell trials can be easily modded - are they scripted, or an applied .SPL effect? But that's kind of okay - 15% MR at epic levels is not so bad, it's just the stacking that ruins the game. (The PnP books originally advised DMs to limit players to 15% MR.)

Status: 30% done.

The final part of this is making a list of every spell in the game and deciding whether it is or isn't subject to MR - using the same method as the saving throw modlet or the spell school modlet that I posted in the KR forums. Baseline would be, indirect effects bypass MR (Fireball - it's still hot!) while direct effects get blocked (Charm/Hold/etc.).

Status: 30% done.

Then the .ini file will have options to turn off the .CRE changes, and/or turn off the .SPL changes. So you can play different ways:
- Low MR: no creatures have MR, and the PC can't amass high MR.
- Logical MR: enemy creatures keep their MR, but a bunch of spells can bypass it. The PC cannot amass high MR.
- Hardcore challenge: enemies keep their MR, and it blocks all spells as normal... but the PC still can't amass high MR.

[subtledoctor]

(It goes without saying, increasing the focus on saving throws will work a lot better when used in conjunction with Spell Revisions and/or the Saving Throw Standardization component of my mod...)

 

Also: items that give immunity to 1st/2nd level magic... using the same opcode as Globe of Invulnerability, does that mean you would be immune to Bless/Prayer/Blur/etc.? Would that make these more harmful than beneficial?

 

If so, those would be better as equipping effect on weapons, since you could easily unequip them while you buff. Maybe use this effect for Carsomyr...

[kreso]

Also: items that give immunity to 1st/2nd level magic... using the same opcode as Globe of Invulnerability, does that mean you would be immune to Bless/Prayer/Blur/etc.? Would that make these more harmful than beneficial?

Yes and yes. You could add a crapload of 206 opcodes against Magic missile, Chrom.orb, Blindness etc.

[subtledoctor]

Okay, here's a first beta. It changes .CREs and .ITMs.

 

EDIT - it's updated to take MR away from Wizard Slayers and Monks. This is a big nerf to Wizard Slayers if they keep their item restrictions... but I don't care. Btw this doesn't update the class descriptions so they will be wrong... I'll update it when I get a chance.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86011511/MRO.zip

 

Probably shouldn't be used with IWDEE, it doesn't address any items there. (But then again, there is no SCS on IWDEE, so there are no AI issues there.)

[DavidW]

With apologies for waking an ancient thread from its sepulchral slumber...

 

SCS "cheats" when lowering your MR. It's usually done via 3xLower Resistance trigger. Mages will *never* have or use this trigger if MR doesn't exist on you - they'll simply cast something else liek 3xChain Lightning, so you won't be messing anything with it.

 

It doesn't cheat (unless something is broken). Mage sequencers get selected by script when the mage first activates and don't change thereafter.

[Jarno Mikkola]

With apologies for waking an ancient thread from its sepulchral slumber...

SCS "cheats" when lowering your MR. It's usually done via 3xLower Resistance trigger. Mages will *never* have or use this trigger if MR doesn't exist on you - they'll simply cast something else liek 3xChain Lightning, so you won't be messing anything with it.

It doesn't cheat (unless something is broken). Mage sequencers get selected by script when the mage first activates and don't change thereafter.

That's why the cheat was in the quote marks.

But indeed the mage sequence won't change. But the fact that the player never sees the content of those sequencers might be misleading to the fact that they would actually cheat. That and also the instantly created creatures sequencer can adopt to the opponent(aka the player), as they can see the mage that has the 60% magic resistance and just utilize the sequencer to dispel it, or say there's no such and insert other things to their sequencer, like said Chain Lightning. After which there's no good way for the player to re-adopt before the combat is over. As having the 60% magic resistance could be all they have... so it not working anymore without being able to redeploy and re-equip for this example the lightning resistance outfit, is all kinds of bad for them. And when they do... the enemy mages has already seen that and won't cast the lightning spells, and instead chooses the fireball spells...

 

I am not saying that I could make a better system, I am just saying that this makes it more difficult for the player. While not specifically making it "harder". As probably the enemy mage has enough spell slots to have more than enough spells to spare.

And what comes to the late response, we know you have been away and your coming is welcomed. Unless you leave and leave the SCS in a mess, in more of a mess than the v30 is now, and in the future. Then we will all just be a little more mad. But don't worry, we are already estimated to be insane, so there's really nothing you could do to make it much worse. As we kinda have backups.

[DavidW]

 

 

SCS "cheats" when lowering your MR. It's usually done via 3xLower Resistance trigger. Mages will *never* have or use this trigger if MR doesn't exist on you - they'll simply cast something else liek 3xChain Lightning, so you won't be messing anything with it.

 

It doesn't cheat (unless something is broken). Mage sequencers get selected by script when the mage first activates and don't change thereafter.

That's why the cheat was in the quote marks.

But indeed the mage sequence won't change. But the fact that the player never sees the content of those sequencers might be misleading to the fact that they would actually cheat. That and also the instantly created creatures sequencer can adopt to the opponent(aka the player), as they can see the mage that has the 60% magic resistance and just utilize the sequencer to dispel it, or say there's no such and insert other things to their sequencer, like said Chain Lightning.

It doesn't do that either. Sequencers get selected at random and without reference to the player's specific defenses. Look at strategems/mage/ssl/bg2/prepblocks/magetrig.ssl and stratagems/mage/spell triggers.txt.

[subtledoctor]

TBH I wouldn't mind if SCS sequencers were adaptive to the player's stats - players can generally prepare for upcoming enemies after all.

[Salk]

TBH I wouldn't mind if SCS sequencers were adaptive to the player's stats - players can generally prepare for upcoming enemies after all.

 

I disagree.

 

Randomness adds variety to the encounters and that change would make SCS "cheat". It is irrelevant what players generally do, in my opinion and there are many ways to make things more difficult for the player, including customizations to stratagems.ini, if one wants.

[DavidW]

TBH I wouldn't mind if SCS sequencers were adaptive to the player's stats - players can generally prepare for upcoming enemies after all.

Hard to code without risking implausibility - the line between "prepares for party" and "has unjustified telepathic knowledge of party" is hard to avoid crossing.