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dispelling sreen spell protections demilich

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#1 VagPen

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 03:14 AM

Greetings! How does DS fare against let's say imprisonment spamming from demiliches? Is it a viable counter like the former SI Abjuration?



#2 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 03:20 AM

I don't think so...? (Nor should it be IMHO.)

Freedom has a duration now, I believe it can prevent Imprisonment.

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#3 Bartimaeus

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 09:53 AM

I don't think so...? (Nor should it be IMHO.)

Freedom has a duration now, I believe it can prevent Imprisonment.

 

What's that? Pretty sure it doesn't. Unless you just changed it, b15's Freedom works pretty much the same way it always has (mass instant enchantment and imprisonment breaker, but no protections offered).


Edited by Bartimaeus, 18 September 2018 - 10:16 AM.


#4 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 10:33 AM

Huh.  I guess you're right. 

 

Did it ever give Imprisonment a save?  Demi had been talking about that...


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#5 VagPen

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:59 PM

Huh.  I guess you're right. 

 

Did it ever give Imprisonment a save?  Demi had been talking about that...

If it's still a no save then the only possible counters would be spell trap/shield of the archons.



#6 Bartimaeus

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 02:51 PM

No saving throw allowed for Imprisonment, either, I'm pretty sure. I've always hated this spell. One of those rare cases where its use isn't that great for the player (with some exception), but is ridiculously punishing when the AI uses it.



#7 subtledoctor

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 05:30 PM

One of Demi's last posts mentioned giving Imprisonment a saving throw, and adding something to the description about how the no-save version requires a longer, ritualized casting (thus explaining the Harper encounter).

 

The spell should definitely be made less of an all-or-nothing proposition.  It should be toned down, and some others like Energy Drain need buffing.


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#8 VagPen

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 02:10 AM

One of Demi's last posts mentioned giving Imprisonment a saving throw, and adding something to the description about how the no-save version requires a longer, ritualized casting (thus explaining the Harper encounter).

 

The spell should definitely be made less of an all-or-nothing proposition.  It should be toned down, and some others like Energy Drain need buffing.

Wouldn't be easier to give Freedom a duration?



#9 VagPen

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 02:11 AM

 

One of Demi's last posts mentioned giving Imprisonment a saving throw, and adding something to the description about how the no-save version requires a longer, ritualized casting (thus explaining the Harper encounter).

 

The spell should definitely be made less of an all-or-nothing proposition.  It should be toned down, and some others like Energy Drain need buffing.

 

 

 

If Freedom has indeed a duration then it's not so bad...(Sorry for double posting!)


Edited by VagPen, 20 September 2018 - 02:13 AM.


#10 Bartimaeus

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 06:28 AM

I'm not sure which approach I would favor, or possibly even both. Freedom is currently a pretty bad spell, very similar to Stone to Flesh, so it probably makes some sense to change it. Do you only provide protection against Imprisonment, though, or everything it currently breaks? For how long? One character or the entire party? And unfortunately, it's a level 9 spell, which means you can't really use it (unless you cast it from scroll?) in SoA against Imprisonment's most notable user, Kangaxx. So it might make sense to provide a saving throw anyways...which would probably be like -6?



#11 DavidW

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 07:11 AM

Kangaxx doesn't actually use the Imprisonment wizard spell, he uses an innate demilich power, Trap the Soul. I would have thought editing monster innate powers is probably beyond SR's scope? (SCS does give a saving throw against it.)



#12 VagPen

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 07:12 AM

I'm not sure which approach I would favor, or possibly even both. Freedom is currently a pretty bad spell, very similar to Stone to Flesh, so it probably makes some sense to change it. Do you only provide protection against Imprisonment, though, or everything it currently breaks? For how long? One character or the entire party? And unfortunately, it's a level 9 spell, which means you can't really use it (unless you cast it from scroll?) in SoA against Imprisonment's most notable user, Kangaxx. So it might make sense to provide a saving throw anyways...which would probably be like -6?

IMO, single target, 3-6 rounds (likePFMW, powerful but short duration), protection from maze, imprisonment/trap the soul plus the benefits of the divine spell freedom of movement. 

 

Imp/trap the soul - no save but magic resistance stops it.


Edited by VagPen, 20 September 2018 - 07:17 AM.


#13 Bartimaeus

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:04 AM

>powerful but short duration

 

That's an...interesting analysis. A few different effects here: 1. Frees imprisoned/mazed characters; 2. Temporarily protects against imprisonment/maze; 3. Free Action. The second effect, one person being immune to imprisonment/maze for a handful of rounds, sounds like it should be a level 1 spell a la Protection from Petrification, not a level 9 spell. Free Action is a level 4 cleric spell that has a duration of 1 turn/level - a few rounds of that is...pretty bad (I mean, if the protection against Imprisonment even does its job for your one character, you're probably not going to be concerned about other movement-limiting effects within the same timeframe anyways, right?), and also does not a level 9 spell make. If it were me, I would probably opt for 1 turn and affect the entire party (a sort of mass vocalize, except against imprisonment/maze instead of silence), or even everyone within the entire area if you want to make the concept of freeing all imprisoned characters - even hostile ones - consistent. Basically, would be a 1 turn freeze on imprisonment/maze effects. The reason it should be at least 30' party is spellcasters would just target non-Freedom-ed characters just as easily, which makes a single target protection against it rather useless...and it's a level 9 spell.

 

@DavidW: Outside of a handful of exceptions, yes. SR definitely overwrites spin788, which it calls "Demilich Soul Trap", and I presume that's the same. I'm not sure HOW it modifies it, though - never looked at it.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 20 September 2018 - 08:07 AM.


#14 subtledoctor

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:12 AM

I'll not go against Demi's express stated intent unless and until 1) it's had a full discussion in the forums; and 2) Demi and/or kreso and/or Mike and/or Ardanis have agreed to the change.

 

If Demi/kreso/Mike/Ardanis don't agree but there is some consensus that it is a good change, maybe I would add it to my post-SR tweaks component in Tome & Blood.

 

All that said: I do think maybe giving Freedom a duration would be a good idea.  Demi seems to have wanted it to be a super-Break Enchantment, whereas, with a duration, it is more like a super-Free Action.  Or both combined.  For a 9th-level slot, I think the latter is not too powerful.

 

I don't think Imprisonment should be stopped by magic resistance.  In PnP maybe, where MR is rare.  But the way these games give it out like candy on Halloween, it would make the spell too easy to resist outright. 

 

Maybe something more creative is in order.  Something progressive, like Flesh to Stone.  The spell turns you ethereal first (blur effect, Slow, 50% miscast magic), then if you fail a save with a huge penalty you become insubstantial (set APR = 0, disable speech, spellcasting, and innate abilities), then if you fail another save you become properly imprisoned.  If you make one of the first saves you avoid outright death, but you remain in the disabled state until someone casts Freedom on you.


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#15 subtledoctor

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:15 AM

Kangaxx doesn't actually use the Imprisonment wizard spell, he uses an innate demilich power, Trap the Soul. I would have thought editing monster innate powers is probably beyond SR's scope? (SCS does give a saving throw against it.)

 

SR alters monster powers where they mimic spells - for the sake of consistency.  E.g., with SR, basilisks use SR-style petrification instead of vanilla petrification.


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