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#16 K4thos

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 01:07 AM

I wasn't aware that porting things 'back' from IWD2 would be as simple as that.

The conversion itself is quite problematic and requires tons of effort. "Not that hard" referred mostly to the fact that it can be done in the first place with good portion of automating the process, instead of doing everything by hand, with the outcome that (theoretically) shouldn't make that much of difference from gameplay perspective, even if the game is using different ruleset.
 
The conversion would be likely much easier if there was IWD2:EE built on top of the current EE engine but unfortunately it's not available. (but as mentioned if it were, the conversion would likely be done the other way around in order to take advantage of newest EE engine)
 

Another concern is that BG:EE, SoD, EE2 and IWD:EE can all be purchased in a bundle together on Steam or Beamdog or whatever, while I think IWD2 is only on GoG at the moment? If an IWD2:EE came out, this wouldn't even be an issue any more.

Unlike BG:EE, SoD and IWD:EE content, which are converted 100% on the fly, IWD2 resources are not converted during installation. Due to amount of rules, file format differences and hardcoding (prise the lord for gemrb which dehardcoded some important stuff) it's easier to just include IWD2 dialogs, scripts, area, projectiles etc. files directly in the mod package. Otherwise the installation would be very long (on the fly IWD:EE importation already takes about 10 minutes. With IWD2 content treated the same way the time would increase drastically). Of course good portion of the conversion is automated with spaghetti weidu code written for this purpose, but there's not much advantage in including such code in the package.
 
I'm not yet sure how the IWD2 portion of the mod will be distributed (probably will import just art files from IWD2, rest will be directly in the package) but I think even if we decide to include all IWD2 resources, including art, some kind of registry check for IWD2 presence on the system would be a good idea, otherwise the mod could be accused of illegally distributing whole game (on the other hand I don't think anyone ever raised such concern regarding Never Ending Journey which offers whole IWD1 without any on the fly importation)
 

I'm uncertain that balance could be maintained in IWD2-in-EET, but that's got little to do with the absence of 3.5 mechanics and more to do with the fact that the nature of EET, combined with making the IWD stories an optional area, makes the game very open ended and would make it hard to account for a party's equipment or power.

that's one aspect of it (I'm considering implementing "creature size" 2nd ed mehanics simulation by spawning invisible cre via effect attached directly to cre file, that can buff stats depending on the party level). But my main concern is related to over simplification of the rules conversion itself and how IWD2 actually implemented the rules (which is technically a mess, imo, not really a fateful 3rd edition ruleset).

Remember that in EET you're allowed to start the game from campaign of your choice. I hope that choosing to play IWD2 campaign without rest of EET content will result in roughly similar encounters difficulty that the original game had but I can't say that this is the case just yet. For example let's take a look at the easiest and well accepted conversion of CRE Strength from 3rd to 2nd:
19 = 18/01–18/50
20 = 18/51–18/75
21 = 18/76 –18/90
22 = 18/91–18/99
23 = 18/00
24 = 19–20 
25 = 21–22
26 = 22–23
27 = 24–25

On paper it sounds nice and all but who knows if we don't end up with extremely overpowered encounter or the other way around by doing conversion like this. Similar concerns when it comes to HP, AC, XP, save throws conversion etc. 

 

Having access to some of the BG2 mechanics (for example Sorcerer class with access to all the usual BG2 spells, not limited by spell scrolls availability) may significantly change the encounter difficulty too (btw. this is a common criticism regarding IWD:EE, which is much easier compared to vanilla IWD due to access to a lot of BG2 spells and mechanics).
 

We will see how good the rules conversion is once IWD2 creatures are able to fight back (as mentioned AI is not handled yet, but will be worked on soon, thanks to Bubb's BCS enhancements, which will allow me to work around  for example "MarkSpellAndObject" action (automatic conversion of the code, resulting it the exact same AI behavior as in IWD2, without need to rewrite the AI script logic by hand from scratch).

 

Some by hand changes and altering local conversion code based on feedback may be needed in order to maintain the original balance of IWD2 content.


Edited by K4thos, 05 August 2018 - 03:32 AM.


#17 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 02:29 AM

Let me preface this a little...

"Not that hard" referred mostly to the fact that it can be done in the first place with good portion of automating the process...

By efforts of previous conversion processes/efforts... BG2-in-IWD2(aka icewindgate, of which there is a demo-v35, that eventually didn't get to go on, cause the IWD2 engine is garbage), Tutu, BGT, NEJ, EasyTutu, BGT-weidu, IWDinBG2 to mention a few. And the BG1EE, BG2EE, IWDEE... notice that yes, these things have been done about 10 times.
 

The conversion would be likely much easier if there was IWD2:EE built on top of the current EE engine

Yeah, but that's likely to NEWER GOING TO HAPPEN. Beamdog has done both PS:Torment & NeverWinter Nights rather than IWD2, one should take from this that the IWD2 was really reaking heap of garbage .... yes, I repeat my point here intentionally.
 

For example let's take a look at the easiest and well accepted conversion of CRE Strength from 3rd to 2nd:

Really, cause that table looks off by a mile. It's because all the stat bonuses on 3ed rules are so called divide by 2 and minus -10, while the 2ed rules are way not. Worse is that there's a huge difference betweren stats, and there's so called dump stats. This is originally in the 2ed and so in in BG1&2, cause there needed to be Gods, not just "Avatars of ...".


Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 05 August 2018 - 02:34 AM.

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#18 K4thos

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 02:49 AM

Really, cause that table looks off by a mile. It's because all the stat bonuses on 3ed rules are so called divide by 2 and minus -10, while the 2ed rules are way not. Worse is that there's a huge difference betweren stats, and there's so called dump stats. This is originally in the 2ed and so in in BG1&2, cause there needed to be Gods, not just "Avatars of ...".

 

We will see if the gameplay will feel right with conversions like the ones described for example here and here. In some cases referring to Monstrous Manual or using stats from existing CRE files in EE games may prove to give better results. Rules conversion never will be ideal. But it doesn't have to be really, as long as the balance is roughly maintained (read it as: not broken).
 
By efforts of previous conversion processes/efforts... BG2inIWD2(icewindgate, of which there was a demo, that eventually didn't get to go on, cause the IWD2 engine is garbage), Tutu, BGT, NEJ, EasyTutu, BGT-weidu, IWDinBG2 to mention a few. And the BG1EE, BG2EE, IWDEE... notice that yes, these things have been done about 10 times.

err, what's your point here? You can also add World of Baldur's Gate mod to that list (Polish compilation of mods made by dradiel with IWD2 content ported into vanilla BG2 engine entirely by him)


Edited by K4thos, 05 August 2018 - 03:28 AM.


#19 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:27 AM

 

err, what's your point here?

It was to give the background... that multiple whole conversion of game assets have been done multiple times, and mostly they got better over that time, too. 

And this is not just inside a single mod, but ... more to the fact that the newer conversions can use the old ones as base: As the IWDinBG2 the last non EE conversion... was used to build some sort of a base to build the IWDEE, this has happened multiple times, from BGT to Tutu, from Tutu to BGT-weidu and EasyTutu, which each of those benefitting from the other too, and so forth.


Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 05 August 2018 - 04:21 AM.

Welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand.
Here's how to install all the ... mods you ever really could want to Infinity Engine games. I removed the stable word from there as Roxanne began to add BS mods that are likely to break compatibility from the BWS.

#20 K4thos

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:28 AM

It was to give the background... that multiple whole conversion of game assets have been done multiple times, and mostly they got better over that time, too. 

 

 

agreed


#21 AWizardDidIt

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 09:06 AM

I'm glad to see how things are moving and it's good to see you back K4thos :)

 

Shoot me a message once the beta for IWD2 is in any kind of playable state. I might be interested in writing more dialogue interactions for party characters if you still think that would be a good addition.



#22 K4thos

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 03:45 PM

sure thing, AWizardDidIt :) Glad you're still interested.



#23 K4thos

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 12:45 PM

just an update how IWD2 level and class rules will be implemented (if Bubb succedes with expanding the engine functionality): https://forums.beamd...Comment_1001653

Crazy ambitious plan but with the lua access it should be doable (I've worked with lua before)
The idea for this system came during Feat spells conversion – since thier bonuses are implemented for creatures, why not add Feats as an option for player as well? This system hopefully will satisfy those who prefer 3rd edition rules introduced in IWD2.

Edited by K4thos, 13 August 2018 - 01:15 PM.


#24 Ser Elryk

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 04:36 AM

Exactly how much of IWD2 will be included in IWD-in-EET? Specifically story and quests. I never played it, but am curious.



#25 bob_veng

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 06:51 PM

IWD2 items need IWD1-ification. someone should manually go over the list of all IWD2 items and see which IWD2 items could be replaced with mechanically/thematically equivalent non-unique IWD1 (and possibly BG1/2 items). the prefix and suffix system is similar so it shouldn't be a huge task. most of the rest can be scrapped in the first pass and if needed gradually reintroduced in a more appropriate form

 

alternatively, a combined set of prefixes suffixes can be created that takes from both iwd1 and iwd2 and a set of generic enchanted weapons with procs can be created that can populate IWD1 and IWD2 content with a density that's in line with EET without IWDs. (there's a better and more sophisticated solution though which we've talked about before)

 

...this way, random IWD tables can also be scrapped, maybe, and all loot can be determinate like in BG1/2

 

if random loot will be in EET it should not be confined to IWD areas, i don't find that reasonable at all. so random tables are problematic on two levels, technical (as k4thos says) and conceptual (my opinion) and that's even more of a reason to scrap them for the time being and maybe put them back later.



#26 Aquadrizzt

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:30 AM

I have a macro that I was using for a Planescape/IWD2 map conversion process that lets you submit an associative array and an IWD2 area and it will automatically convert all the IWD2 items over to the replacement items specified in the array (it actually also works on creatures). 

 

The random tables, however, have a bug in their code in the EEs that might present... difficulties (at least last time I checked). The random loot was always a very frustrating component of IWD/IWD2 anyway (although I'm sure that for some it was part of the appeal). 


Edited by Aquadrizzt, 20 August 2018 - 11:30 AM.

Tome and Blood: Expanded Options for Arcane Spellcasters 

Monastic Orders of Faerun: Expanded Options for Monks 

Multiclass Kits(macro): Enabling Multiclass Kits in EEv2.0+

The Power of Belief: Allowing TNO to Become a Priest 

Undivided: Traveling With All Companions in PSTEE

 


#27 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 01:23 PM

I have a macro that I was using for a Planescape/IWD2 map conversion process that lets you submit an associative array and an IWD2 area and it will automatically convert all the IWD2 items over to the replacement items specified in the array (it actually also works on creatures). 

 

The random tables, however, have a bug in their code in the EEs that might present... difficulties (at least last time I checked). The random loot was always a very frustrating component of IWD/IWD2 anyway (although I'm sure that for some it was part of the appeal). 

You might want to edit the message and put that code to a spoilers -tags.


Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 20 August 2018 - 01:23 PM.

Welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand.
Here's how to install all the ... mods you ever really could want to Infinity Engine games. I removed the stable word from there as Roxanne began to add BS mods that are likely to break compatibility from the BWS.

#28 jastey

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 10:17 AM

I'll post this here: The site http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwd-in-eet is either down or there is a typo in the address given in the "IWD-in-EET Overview" thread.





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