Interval Between SoA and ToB

[Ishad Nha]

Flaw in the original BG2 game: there was supposed to have been a few weeks or months at Suldanesselar after the return from Hell and before Throne of Bhaal starts. Enough time for PCs to be healed and rested. Need to alter any cutscenes at the end in Suldanesselar so that the party is actually healed and rested! Items from PCs killed in Hell should be dumped in this city not in the Forest of Tethyr. Obviously there should be time for resurrected PCs to re-equip their gear.
It is generally the lack of internal consistency that I don't like.
Probably have the expansion start from a house in Suldanesselar. Ellesime says that the protagonist was dead for a few days at most, hence at least a few days have elapsed between Hell and ToB. I get the impression it is more like weeks or months. Especially given the time needed for the mayhem spread by the Five.

[Roxanne]

Flaw in the original BG2 game: there was supposed to have been a few weeks or months at Suldanesselar after the return from Hell and before Throne of Bhaal starts. Enough time for PCs to be healed and rested. Need to alter any cutscenes at the end in Suldanesselar so that the party is actually healed and rested! Items from PCs killed in Hell should be dumped in this city not in the Forest of Tethyr. Obviously there should be time for resurrected PCs to re-equip their gear.

It is generally the lack of internal consistency that I don't like.

Probably have the expansion start from a house in Suldanesselar. Ellesime says that the protagonist was dead for a few days at most, hence at least a few days have elapsed between Hell and ToB. I get the impression it is more like weeks or months. Especially given the time needed for the mayhem spread by the Five.

There is a mod that does exactly that and it has been around since a decade already, It also adds an extra adventure and journey between the Suldanesselar end and the transition to ToB. The mod is The Darkest Day (TDD).

 

At least the part of TDD that has the post-Suldanesselar episode should be part of EET (there is discussion about other components of the mod as being overpowered and such - the usual accusation against mega-mods, mostly from people who do not even use them).

[Roxanne]

Just for the case that TDD is never converted to EET, the SandrahNPC mod will need to add this episode to the mod (ressurect it in some way if TDD is no longer maintained). The plot involving Cyric and his machinations in the Bhaalspawn story is an essential element for me, as well as the need of some extra time between Suldanessalar and ToB for Sandrah to finish her own business in Amn

[K4thos]

Flaw in the original BG2 game: there was supposed to have been a few weeks or months at Suldanesselar after the return from Hell and before Throne of Bhaal starts. Enough time for PCs to be healed and rested. Need to alter any cutscenes at the end in Suldanesselar so that the party is actually healed and rested! Items from PCs killed in Hell should be dumped in this city not in the Forest of Tethyr. Obviously there should be time for resurrected PCs to re-equip their gear.

It is generally the lack of internal consistency that I don't like.

Probably have the expansion start from a house in Suldanesselar. Ellesime says that the protagonist was dead for a few days at most, hence at least a few days have elapsed between Hell and ToB. I get the impression it is more like weeks or months. Especially given the time needed for the mayhem spread by the Five.

If the problem lays on amount of days passed than it's very easy to solve with new EE engine action:

AdvanceTime(any_value)

where any_value could be few weeks delay or even years (everything is correctly updated, including journal). Before deciding on doing it by default it's probably better to wait for mods that are in the works now and see how they implement post-hell Suldanesselar.content to not conflict with them:

- TDD currently developed by shadowlich (light version that focuses only on story content). Not sure what is it about but it makes changes to SoA ending.

- A Journey's End (continuation to The Eve of War) written by one of Beamdog devs. Among other things it aims to expand on Sythillisian Empire story post SoA.

[subtledoctor]

I should hope that a broad engine-combination tweak like EET will not elevate certain mods and preclude the use of other mods... and I especially hope that it will not elevate a mod that inspires such divided opinions as TDD, which is also long-dead and no longer maintained (but NB, it's content is still under copyright). EET should be a framework that lets people use whichever mods they want...

[Vlan]

Don't really care about TDD, but I really would love to see a nice litte transition between SoA and ToB as well.

[Roxanne]

Don't really care about TDD, but I really would love to see a nice litte transition between SoA and ToB as well.

TDDz by shadowlich has converted the former TDD episode to EET, reduced the overpowered items and encounters, solved the Ellesime final dialogue problem (conflict with other mods using Ellesime) etc. It is not yet in its final state but I tested it in my EET playthrough - and until something better is developped it provides a better transition from BG2 to ToB than just being transferred there from Irenicus in Hell via Ellesime to the Talking Heads in one endless scene (as happens without TDDz).

 

Shadowlich's is a positive attempt to improve the new game and does not deserve this type of unreflected condemnation from people not even having given it a chance.

[bob_veng]

offtopic:

I don't remember TDD well. Does this component that has the the transition add areas that reuse existing graphics, in a...pronounced way? What are the areas in the episode like, generally? I remember liking the mod back in the day but hating some areas, such as the completely recycled town.

 

Does shadowlich also improve the areas? That would be a-mazing.

[Roxanne]

offtopic:

I don't remember TDD well. Does this component that has the the transition add areas that reuse existing graphics, in a...pronounced way? What are the areas in the episode like, generally? I remember liking the mod back in the day but hating some areas, such as the completely recycled town.

 

Does shadowlich also improve the areas? That would be a-mazing.

At the moment the areas used are the ones in the original mod. Probably you refer to the Riativin quest which has a town area same as Beregost??. The BG2 to ToB quest uses its own areas + 2 from IWD (this may be an issue for later considerations when IWD-EET comes...but this issue will appear in a number of mods that have used IWD areas over the years).

One advantage of TDDz is the fact that you can select the different episodes (quests) individually.

[bob_veng]

Tx for the answer.

Yeah Riatavin...i don't really remember how TDD content goes.

Well that's not bad at all! Just 2 recycled IWD areas. I guess that this transition quest can be "elevated" into something generally recommended, contrary to what subtledoctor said prior to learning about TDDz.

 

So it's a pretty big deal imho. It's good to have the natural transition sequence, without it there's a really a hole punched through the timeline.

 

Maybe shadowlich would, appreciating the ehhrm elevated significance of this specific component devote some more attention to it and replace the recycled areas with quality original areas (very hard, i know...), or - even better - just use the plethora of existing vanilla areas, many of them being underused and migrate the content of the mod there.

[subtledoctor]

I haven't seen anyone condemn Shadowlich or his work. His efforts to update TDD are to be commended.

 

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it should be an integral part of EET itself. The stated goal of EET is simply to let you play all the way from Candlekeep to the Throne (and even beyond) in one engine, one game.

 

But EET should respect players' desires to use, or not use, different mods. BGT didn't say you could only use SR, not SPb6... each could work fine, or you could use neither. Similarly, I hope that with EET, all of these options will be viable:

- the vanilla "one big long scene from hell to the talking stone heads (which I agree with Roxanne is poorly done)

- TDDz episode between SoA and TOB

- elminster's new mod between SoA and TOB

- any other new mod that some creative person decides to make for us

 

Players should not be tied to any one particular modder's vision. They should be as free as possible.

[K4thos]

Has anyone ever tried to convert Commandos series maps to BG format? This one could be used for TDD Riatavin:

http://www.commandosserie.be/dossier/maps/mocmis09.jpg

Even if it would require upscaling (not sure what is the resolution of Commandos map source files) it would probably still look decent.

[Jarno Mikkola]

HOWEVER... They should be as free as possible.

And they are as free as you like. Similarly, the IwD-in-EET will be, as will hte DSotSC for both BGT-weidu and EET... just like all the other things... Who the freak would even consider compiling a mod without those borders. A BP perhaps, but that like 10 years ago.

Yeah, the EET has a few very few extra parts, but most of those have actually been stripped apart. If you notice, the current betas download size is ~272MBs, a while ago it was 500+ MBs. With the EET Tweaks and other fun still in it.

[Roxanne]

Tx for the answer.

Yeah Riatavin...i don't really remember how TDD content goes.

Well that's not bad at all! Just 2 recycled IWD areas. I guess that this transition quest can be "elevated" into something generally recommended, contrary to what subtledoctor said prior to learning about TDDz.

 

So it's a pretty big deal imho. It's good to have the natural transition sequence, without it there's a really a hole punched through the timeline.

 

Maybe shadowlich would, appreciating the ehhrm elevated significance of this specific component devote some more attention to it and replace the recycled areas with quality original areas (very hard, i know...), or - even better - just use the plethora of existing vanilla areas, many of them being underused and migrate the content of the mod there.

 

 

Has anyone ever tried to convert Commandos series maps to BG format? This one could be used for TDD Riatavin:

http://www.commandosserie.be/dossier/maps/mocmis09.jpg

Even if it would require upscaling (not sure what is the resolution of Commandos map source files) it would probably still look decent.

Another thing that may fit into this slot may be one of the higher level IWD episodes - but again you can critisize this approach like any other saying it *prescribes* your way through the game. As long as EET still tries to tell some story instead of providing a playground to battle around and throw spells just for fun while travelling over a worldmap without real cause, we always end up at the same point - some will like it, some not - while leaving everything up to players choices makes any attempt to tell a story in the game obsolete.

[bob_veng]

@subtledoctor
Yeah, making a part of TDD an integral part of EET doesn't seem to be on the table even hypothetically - but what can be had is a go-to very satisfacory option that can be recommended to people. Of course, maybe elminster's mod is a better candidate, i have no idea.

Regardless, i think that something can be endorsed. Probably the the option judged the best by authoritative people should be selected for endorsement - then maybe it can be worked on to be brought to a very high standard if it's not already up to that standard (if it is then great!).

 

For example, this TDD bit is objectively not up to that standard because of the recyled areas. But even as a secondary less endorsed option (if the elminster's mod or something else is better) it would be good to have it up to standard.

 

Also the options are not absolutely mutually exclusive. Maybe a compilation of the two mods mentioned so far can be made (edit: just in order to make them work together i mean, not like "taking only the best parts"), if their authors are interested etc.

 

@Roxanne

do you think that later chapters of IWD2 could be adapted to work there? Since a half of IWD2 is not yet a part of IWD-in-EET and it requires a lot of creative remolding to fit it coherently, it could arguably be omitted forever from the scope IWD-in-EET.

Instead this part of IWD2 could be adapted as separate mod, complementary to IWD-in-EET, (called IWD-in-EET+ for example).

A perfectly plausible and basically true rationale for omitting it is: "unlike the rest of the EET project there are lot of changes here, so it's been left as optional"

And when you break from the stifling "must-be-vanilla, must lay a groundwork for future mods etc etc" mode and basically release a y'know real moddy-mod and not an infrastructural conversion-thing, you might as well make it acessible only between SoD and ToB. Then you can do whatever you want.

 

If someone is dying to play it right away they will always be able to use the console i mean. Or buy IWD2 on GoG.

 

But despite what i said, the changes can still be as minimal as possible (but they can't possibly be truly minimal). It can still basically play as "second half of IWD2-in-BG".

 

So yeah, these are my thoughts, hope that makes sense...