Summoning Spells for V4

[Ardanis]

Animal Summoning VII

Furthermore, I think they do not fit the Monster Summoning spell much, because they are no monsters they are beasts - magical ones - but still beasts.

Imo it is the magical part that contradicts the concept the strongest, because animals have nothing magical about them.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Animal Summoning VII

I don't know what to do here. The only animals more powerful than 6HD bears are 7+HD bears! That being said it's probably not a big deal considering all Conjure Elemental spells pretty much work this way (aka 6th lvl spell uses higher HD elemental of 5th lvl spell). Any better suggestion?

 

Polar Bears with 8 HD would seem like the next logical step.

 

aTweaks will use them as summons when I get around to to PnP Animals and Magical Beasts.

[Lawlight]

Polar Bears may be the next logical step power wise, but within the BG series they'd just look totally out of place imo.

 

Furthermore, I think they do not fit the Monster Summoning spell much, because they are no monsters they are beasts - magical ones - but still beasts. Imo it is the magical part that contradicts the concept the strongest, because animals have nothing magical about them.

You may have a point here. I wish they'd be part of a summoning spell though. I'm quite in love with them.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Polar Bears may be the next logical step power wise, but within the BG series they'd just look totally out of place imo.

 

They are already in the unmodded game (see BEARPOSU.CRE) but they've been renamed into Mountain Bears for BG2. IIRC, the Conjure Animals spell summons them.

 

You may have a point here. I wish they'd be part of a summoning spell though. I'm quite in love with them.

 

I think Ardans is referring to the fact that the original (PnP and BG2) description of the Animal Summoning spells explicitly states that those spells cannot summon magical beasts.

[Demivrgvs]

Animal Summoning VII

I don't know what to do here. The only animals more powerful than 6HD bears are 7+HD bears! That being said it's probably not a big deal considering all Conjure Elemental spells pretty much work this way (aka 6th lvl spell uses higher HD elemental of 5th lvl spell). Any better suggestion?

Polar Bears with 8 HD would seem like the next logical step.

 

aTweaks will use them as summons when I get around to to PnP Animals and Magical Beasts.

Yeah, by 7+HD bears I meant either 8HD Polar Bear (though bearposu.cre actually is a 9HD aniaml) or 9HD Grizzly. What do you mean "aTweaks will use them"? Via vanilla Conjure Animals spells?

 

In theory I'd prefer a 7HD bear, but I guess for the last priest's spell lvl a bigger step is fine.

 

Animal Summoning I & IV

What about my doubts on these two spells?

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Yeah, by 7+HD bears I meant either 8HD Polar Bear (though bearposu.cre actually is a 9HD aniaml)

 

In PnP AD&D, the Polar Bear has 8+8 HD so I guess the Bioware developers erroneously interpreted that as 9 HD.

 

What do you mean "aTweaks will use them"? Via vanilla Conjure Animals spells?

 

Yes, but not just with that spell. As with the other PnP creature components, aTweaks' "PnP Plant creatures, Animals and Magical Beasts" will revise all plant and animal summoning spells (including Animal Summoning I-III and Conjure Animals) to more closely match their PnP counterparts. Therefore, in aTweaks, Animal Summoning III will also be able to summon Polar Bears. Also, Conjure Animals will be removed from the Druid's spell selection as they don't have that spell in PnP AD&D (it's cleric-only).

 

For reference, there's a table near the end of the 2E AD&D Monstrous Manual which explains which creatures should be summoned by the various Monster Summoning and Animal Summoning spells.

[Shaitan]

Animal Summoning I Rats do have a few unique properties, such as a disease attack, but in theory they should be part of a swarm to really work (speaking of which, I now realize that vanilla's 90% physical resistances assigned to the rat form was probably inspired by that). As a swarm, rats would be almost immune to physical damage and hit each round (much like a summon insect spell), but as a single creature it's just a tiny creature with almost no hit points, and terrible thac0. The only way to vaguely make it work like a swarm and make its pathetic thac0 have a small chance to hit something is to give them a 'swarm' bonus (similar to gibberling's mob attack or wolf's pack bonus), and then hope a +1 bonus per rat is enogh. Have you a better idea? Btw, should rats be immune to disease? I was thinking of a nasty Stinking Cloud + rats combo. Makes sense imo, and I like combos which involve different party members. I also thought to use small spiders instead, but they fit AS spells less imo, and the small spider animation still look like a giant spider compared to how small normal spiders should be. Anyway, spiders too should be part of a swarm to matter.

Rats sounds fine (the swarm from Candlekeep comes in mind )

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Therefore, in aTweaks, Animal Summoning III will also be able to summon Polar Bears.

 

Actually scratch that. According to PnP, they are too week for AS III so they'll go into AS II.

 

I'm thinking about using the Allosaurus for ASIII, even though it's "only" 15 HD. There don't seem to be many land-based 16 HD animals except dinosaurs in AD&D. I'm not sure about the animation though. A recolored Lizardmen might be acceptable but it should be bigger than that, yet not quite dragon-sized.

[Demivrgvs]

Also, Conjure Animals will be removed from the Druid's spell selection as they don't have that spell in PnP AD&D (it's cleric-only).

LOL. Sometimes PnP makes really no sense.

 

For reference, there's a table near the end of the 2E AD&D Monstrous Manual which explains which creatures should be summoned by the various Monster Summoning and Animal Summoning spells.

I used those tables for inspiration.

 

Therefore, in aTweaks, Animal Summoning III will also be able to summon Polar Bears.

Actually scratch that. According to PnP, they are too week for AS III so they'll go into AS II.

 

I'm thinking about using the Allosaurus for ASIII, even though it's "only" 15 HD. There don't seem to be many land-based 16 HD animals except dinosaurs in AD&D. I'm not sure about the animation though. A recolored Lizardmen might be acceptable but it should be bigger than that, yet not quite dragon-sized.

Well, according to PnP you can summon either 4x 16HD animals or 8x 8HD ones. In the former case you have to create a new creature from scratch (though dinosaurs would hilarious/ridiculous imo), in the latter you need to remove the summoning cap.

 

Mind you, I find utterly insane to let a 6th lvl spell summon a total of 64HDs, but to each his own. I'm glad to not have to be so strictly tied to PnP like you.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

In the former case you have to create a new creature from scratch (though dinosaurs would hilarious/ridiculous imo)

 

Yeah, but there's really nothing else to choose from. Still, it's not that far fetched as dinosaurs do exist in Faerun, even though they are usually found in remote places like Chult.

 

in the latter you need to remove the summoning cap.

 

Already requested but I intend to use it for AS I and II as they are supposed to summon more than 5 creatures.

 

Mind you, I find utterly insane to let a 6th lvl spell summon a total of 64HDs, but to each his own.

 

The power of the creatures is relative as animals don't have any inherent immunities/spell-like abilities unlike elementals, fiends or undead. They may be heavy hitters but they also go down pretty fast.

[Lawlight]

Animal Summoning I & IV

What about my doubts on these two spells?

 

Animal Summoning I

I agree with the "swarm" thac0 / physical resistance bonus for rats and I like the idea of them beeing immune to disease (which makes sense imo) - yes for the Stinking Cloud + rats combo. Some actual ingame testing will reveal if the swarm bonus is enough for them to hit something. The diesease attack is must have imo, but it has to be balanced right. The chance to apply it has to be very low, because there are so many of them. Another way is to penalize it with an easy to win saving throw, but then it becomes pointless very fast in the higher levels.

 

Animal Summoning IV

Generally, I like panthers more. I agree that the 2* Backstab multiplier could be too much though. Leopards could do just fine.

 

Animal Summoning V

I'd suggest to make them also immune to poison for a Cloudkill + snakes combo. Immunity to Entangle / Spike Growth (and Grease) is very good idea, because this allows the druid for his/her own combos.

 

The "panther problem" brought me to a crazy idea. What about granting them temporary unique special abilities via Magic Fang? Dunno if this is possible though...

[polytope]

Yeah, by 7+HD bears I meant either 8HD Polar Bear (though bearposu.cre actually is a 9HD aniaml)

 

In PnP AD&D, the Polar Bear has 8+8 HD so I guess the Bioware developers erroneously interpreted that as 9 HD.

 

I'm pretty sure the bears should count as 9 HD; an 8 + 8 HD creature would actually have more hp on average than a regular 9 HD.

 

It's mentioned in the DMG that the creature counts as one level higher if it has + 3 hp or more aded to it's HD total.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I'm pretty sure the bears should count as 9 HD; an 8 + 8 HD creature would actually have more hp on average than a regular 9 HD.

 

It's mentioned in the DMG that the creature counts as one level higher if it has + 3 hp or more aded to it's HD total.

 

IIRC, that's only for THAC0, weapon (claw) enchantment and saving throw calculation. It should not affect things like Death Spell etc. which function on creatures that are below a certain number of HD.

[Demivrgvs]

Animal Summoning I

I agree with the "swarm" thac0 / physical resistance bonus for rats and I like the idea of them beeing immune to disease (which makes sense imo) - yes for the Stinking Cloud + rats combo. Some actual ingame testing will reveal if the swarm bonus is enough for them to hit something.

Well, it all depends on the summoning cap. With the cap the "swarm" would be kinda limited (5 rats - thus +5 bonus to hit rolls), and each rat would have thac0 15, but without the cap it would be a completely different story.

 

The diesease attack is must have imo, but it has to be balanced right. The chance to apply it has to be very low, because there are so many of them. Another way is to penalize it with an easy to win saving throw, but then it becomes pointless very fast in the higher levels.

Making tha saving throw very easy is the worst option imo (especially in the long run), it's much better to tweak the % chance of being infected. AD&D rats had 5% chance, but it is not specified how the % works when rats are used as a swarm. That being said, without a cap, both my suggested swarm bonus and PnP 5% chance to cause disease would be fine imo. The end result could be an interesting mix between insect spells and "normal" summons.

 

Animal Summoning IV

Generally, I like panthers more. I agree that the 2* Backstab multiplier could be too much though. Leopards could do just fine.

Yeah, better keep the other idea for a special companion panther to make KR's Druid and/or Beastmaster really cool. Normal PnP animals are fine here.

 

The "panther problem" brought me to a crazy idea. What about granting them temporary unique special abilities via Magic Fang? Dunno if this is possible though...

It's doable, but Magic Fang PnP effect is already fine as it is.

 

Animal Summoning V

I'd suggest to make them also immune to poison for a Cloudkill + snakes combo. Immunity to Entangle / Spike Growth (and Grease) is very good idea, because this allows the druid for his/her own combos.

 

Animal Summoning VI (vanilla's ASIII)

...dinosaurs would be hilarious/ridiculous imo

Yeah, but there's really nothing else to choose from. Still, it's not that far fetched as dinosaurs do exist in Faerun, even though they are usually found in remote places like Chult.

To each his own, but considering it would still be as per PnP I'd surely prefer polar bears over dinosaurs.

 

Mind you, I find utterly insane to let a 6th lvl spell summon a total of 64HDs, but to each his own.

The power of the creatures is relative as animals don't have any inherent immunities/spell-like abilities unlike elementals, fiends or undead. They may be heavy hitters but they also go down pretty fast.

I know, but even without special qualities I really don't understand how 64HDs (e.g. 8x 8HD polar bears) can be balanced for a 6th lvl spell (e.g. 1x Aerial Servant, 1x Invisible Stalker). It would be even worse within SR V4 imo because spells such as Magic Fang and Animal Growth would make such a horde of bears absurdly powerful ("normal" summons don't have any dedicated buff, and normal buffs are not nearly as powerful).

 

Summoning Cap

in the latter you need to remove the summoning cap.

Already requested but I intend to use it for AS I and II as they are supposed to summon more than 5 creatures.

Cool, a tweak/hack which doesn't require us to replace the "summon" type and patch tons of cre, itm, and spl files would be really great.

[Ardanis]

Animal Summoning V

@Demi

You forgot to type the answer

 

Animal Summoning VII

We have sabertooth tiger as 7HD. If we use panther on 4th level, there will probably no same-looking animals in the entire AS family. Well, except dogs/wolves maybe.

I didn't want to suggest it because smilodons only exist in pre-historic settings, and also because real species were actually inferior to contemporary great cats. However, now that aVENGER added them to his PnP Animals document, I suppose we may do the same then.