Physical Resistance

[Salk]

What I want to avoid like the plague of Nurgul itself is over-the-top physical resistance stacking.

IR has 2 items which grant 10% - Rocharanas horn helmet (or whatever its name is) and Fortress shield.

Simple addition goes like this:

 

- Full Plate - 20

- shield -10

- helmet - 10

- KR Hardiness - 20

- Potion of Absorbtion - 20

- Armor of Faith - 20

 

Mix all these, you have immunity to physical damage. Usable by fighter/clerics and paladins. If you don't have Kit Revisions, it's even easier.

What I'd do is:

a) remove physical resistance from Fortress shield

b) Potion of Absorbtion toned down (10%) or doesn't stack with Hardiness HLA

c) Armor of Faith toned down to 10%

 

Then you'd have

10% helmet

20 full plate

Hardiness 20

Absorbtion 10

AoF 10

 

Equals 70 % reduction, max.

Barbarian could get 75 (15 armor, 10 helm, 20 hardiness, absorbtion 10, innate 20) or 80 by using Orc Leather.

 

If Hardiness wouldn't stack with Absorbtion potion then even more sensible numbers are gained - 60 for f/cs and paladins, 65-70 barbarians.

 

As usual, I don't hold with this kind of feedback (and don't get me wrong, kreso - you provide great feedback) on a purely conceptual base.

 

To prove OP or its opposite, I can not accept to use a case limit scenario where more of the following conditions need to coexist to prove a point:

 

1) Specific class

2) Specific items

3) Specific use of consumables

4) Specific level

5) Specific use of spell

6) Selection of a specific difficulty level

7) Specific use of extra mod (or lack of it)

8) Pivotal incidence of metagaming's input

 

I notice how such factors (especially number 2,3,5 and 8) are often used to label items or spells as too powerful or too weak. But in my opinion, such considerations are not valid when are taken out of case-limit contexts.

 

To remain to the specific case above, I believe it's more than acceptable to have a case where one party member might in one combat situation reach temporarily a physical immunity condition, because the following needs to be true in order for it to happen:

 

1) Belong to a specific class

2) Have several piece of equipment being worn together

3) Use of one specific consumable

4) Use of one specific spell

 

If you alter the properties as you suggested, what happens to all those other more common and likely situations where Armor of Faith, for example, is used by some PC not also wearing Full Plate Mail or using the Fortress Shield or drinking the Potion of Absorption or having KR's Hardiness?

 

And the same can be said for the Fortress Shield itself, which is more than fine with its own 10% physical resistance.

 

The items or spells, in short, needs to be proved unbalanced most of the times, not in a case-limit scenario.

 

This is just my 2 cents.

[Sergio]

 

cut

 

cut

 

I wanted to make a post like this one as soon as I got awake, but it seems you preceded me. I agree 101% with Salk!

[kreso]

@Salk & Sergio

 

This is a graph of how physical resistance effects character's effective HP, for a character with 100 HP (average BG2 level 9 fighter-type). It's not really fluid, as you can see.

 

It would take 200 damage to kill him at 50% reduction.

250 at 60% reduction.

500 at 80% reduction.

 

If you'd add only +5% to the chart (and obtain 95%) a character with 100HP would have 2000 effective HP vs physical damage.

The problem, as I see it, is that percentage-based reduction pretty much gets completely out of hand at values above 65-70.

Things only get progressively more imbalanced with more HP (each HP point is worth much more against phy damage with resistances).

Just saying, 70% is enough even for barbarians- SCS will avoid attacking 75% resistance alltogether.

[Salk]

kreso,

 

thanks for the graph but it is no surprise and, more importantly, does not really strengthen (in my opinion, of course) your thesis. Again, I am speaking in general terms here. It's more like a matter of "philosophy" applied to rebalancing the game more than on-a-case analysis.

 

My counterarguments are:

 

1) Same as above. Even if the 100% physical resistance makes a character invulnerable to physical damage, we know very well that;

 

* It's temporary

* It's due to a case-limit scenario

* Non physical damage still deals, theoretically, full damage

 

2) Challenge. It was many years ago but from what I remember, in the game (especially considering the addition of AI enhancing mods of various types) the player is to face combat situations where the enemy would have considerable, if not absolute, resistance. Both physical and magical, sometimes at the same time. I don't feel bad about having somebody in my party be able to match the odds in case-limit scenarios and rely less on metagaming, reloads and outright cheats to have a chance of survival.

[Jarno Mikkola]

...

Still the fact that one needs to intentionally marginalize the choice of the character as Salk point out to a single fact of resistance to a set types of damage... to powerplay and intentionally mismanage the situation, and then use that as a case to lower a kinda bad spell anyways. What if there comes a character that you can't power play against that way cause it insta kills your character if it's physical resistance is ~100% ?

 

Case and point, you can use the Refinements and you'll never be able to go above the 85% physical resistance ... but I don't want that extra script ruining my game.

[kreso]

1) Even if the 100% physical resistance makes a character invulnerable to physical damage,

It does. >100 actually heals him. Note, I ain't even mentioning 100%. I'm saying that anything above 74 is broken.

 

 

* It's due to a case-limit scenario

It's not such a limited case, I'm afraid. Any fighter (one usually has 1 in group I guess ) can go overboard. With or without KR.

 

 

* Non physical damage still deals, theoretically, full damage

Theoretically, yes, but hardly ever in practice. We're talking high levels here, saves are usually succesfull, equipment is splendid. It's not like a Chain lightning will drop HP by 70% instantly no more.

 

2) Challenge. It was many years ago but from what I remember, in the game (especially considering the addition of AI enhancing mods of various types) the player is to face combat situations where the enemy would have considerable, if not absolute, resistance. Both physical and magical, sometimes at the same time.

I won't consider Anvil here, but SCS+Ascension, which is (I'd guess) "core".

There are 2 (only 2!) enemies with such high resistances (mind special cases like missile immunity which is common even in BG1 and golems):

Yaga Shura, the well-known 99% resistant giant which was usually dropped with Jaheira's Harm+Critical strike combo when Ascension was first released.

Melissan - the end-game boss - she has "only" 75% resistance, and she's a freakin' Demigod.

I don't find it plausible to have a damage resistance higher then 70, in any case scenario. You're not a god in this game.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't find it plausible to have a damage resistance higher then 70, in any case scenario. You're not a god in this game.

Well, you actually mean a god avatar cause ... and you really much are that in the end of the Bhaal saga, guess which by the way it begins with a "B" and ends with "haal".

[kreso]

 

I don't find it plausible to have a damage resistance higher then 70, in any case scenario. You're not a god in this game.

Well, you actually mean a god avatar cause ... and you really much are that in the end of the Bhaal saga, guess which by the way it begins with a "B" and ends with "haal".

 

Well, I don't think you really see the point. It doesn't have to be "end of the Bhaal saga" to have imbalanced resistances, it's pretty much done in Suldanesselar I'm afraid.

It also applies to NPCs, not only protagonist. Mazzy may never be a god, but she can have 100% resistance to damage anyway.

[Jarno Mikkola]

It also applies to NPCs, not only protagonist. Mazzy may never be a god, but she can have 100% resistance to damage anyway.

Erhm, but the point we try to make is that it's far too bothersome to try to regulate whatever the player wishes to do... go play ImpAnv... if you are bothered with things you can do and shouldn't really. It's far too bothersome to try to regulate the players "creativity" on situations.

Like the Refinements resistance script... it sorta lags the game if the player exceeds the resistance limit. So there's really no point on exceeding it.

And any spell caster can exceed the 100% fire damage resistance to end up gaining HPs from fireballs, but why aren't you bothering about that so much, but in this ?

 

Thinking the above... shouldn't the fire elementals be on fire constantly and thus gain HPs as they take "damage" from them selves ? The only reason it's not done in the game is that it would have needed the damaging animation removed ... which it can be done. It would be nice if the elemental would actually have a small area off effect aura. And they shouldn't start with max HPs but a few and gain them as they burn until they get unsummoned. The nice trick on this would then would allow one to lower the fire elementals fire resistance enough for them to kill themselves.

[kreso]

 

It also applies to NPCs, not only protagonist. Mazzy may never be a god, but she can have 100% resistance to damage anyway.

Erhm, but the point we try to make is that it's far too bothersome to try to regulate whatever the player wishes to do... go play ImpAnv... if you are bothered with things you can do and shouldn't really. It's far too bothersome to try to regulate the players "creativity" on situations.

I don't see having 120% damage resistance as "creative" thinking. I played Anvil a lot.

 

 

And any spell caster can exceed the 100% fire damage resistance to end up gaining HPs from fireballs, but why aren't you bothering about that so much, but in this ?

You don't get hit by fireballs nearly that often as being smacked by physical damage.

And a few other reasons, but I wouldn't go there.

[Incantatar]

 

 

It also applies to NPCs, not only protagonist. Mazzy may never be a god, but she can have 100% resistance to damage anyway.

Erhm, but the point we try to make is that it's far too bothersome to try to regulate whatever the player wishes to do... go play ImpAnv... if you are bothered with things you can do and shouldn't really. It's far too bothersome to try to regulate the players "creativity" on situations.

I don't see having 120% damage resistance as "creative" thinking. I played Anvil a lot.

There are still dozens of ways to break the game. It shouldn't be the highest priority for a modder to think of every way someone could exploit the rules. (IA is actually a great reference for how it looks like if a modder goes totally nuts about it. I adore saros_shadow_follower and how he always finds ways to play IA how it absolutely can't be played NEVER.)

Nevertheless if it's within reason, things like 120% resistance should be avoided and Demi already agreed. So what are we actually arguing about here?

[Salk]

 

I won't consider Anvil here, but SCS+Ascension, which is (I'd guess) "core".

There are 2 (only 2!) enemies with such high resistances (mind special cases like missile immunity which is common even in BG1 and golems):

Yaga Shura, the well-known 99% resistant giant which was usually dropped with Jaheira's Harm+Critical strike combo when Ascension was first released.

Melissan - the end-game boss - she has "only" 75% resistance, and she's a freakin' Demigod.

I don't find it plausible to have a damage resistance higher then 70, in any case scenario. You're not a god in this game.

 

 

There is a problem with this.

 

You are talking of only 2 enemies that have a formidable "default" base resistance. What about all those enemies that reach temporary immunity thanks to potions and spells, which is just the situation you described on the player's side? I won't even mention standard resistances which are always there, like those of the humblest of the Drow. And why shouldn't I consider Golems or other magical creatures that are immune to a plethora of different kind of attacks? Magical, physical, elemental...

 

The problem with your approach, in my opinion, is that you take for granted and accept those as normal and fair, while you believe the player should never even get close to anything of the sort. Not even temporarily. To me, it's a matter of subtraction - that is, I wish everything would be toned down, for both parties (player and AI). But since the power escalates so much on one side, I feel my conscience is more than at ease when and if I am offered some means to fight back in a more even ground.

 

You write "You're not a god in this game" but accept the fact that enemies might buff themselves up to divine levels, thanks to sequencers, spells, potions or simply have innate powers that shift the odds heavily in their favor.

 

Any resistance above 70% is broken? I might readily agree. Let's remove the chance for both player and AI to ever reach it and then we can talk...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Any resistance above 70% is broken? I might readily agree. Let's remove the chance for both player and AI to ever reach it and then we can talk...

Let's not go over board with this though either, as if we were to do this, the mages would get slaughtered as .. after all when the PfMW only protects from 70% of the damage, they never get to cast a spell and ... :D :D

This is actually to encourage your point Salk, not to against it, as considering x% amount of resistance as broken is just .. broken.

[kreso]

What about all those enemies that reach temporary immunity thanks to potions and spells, which is just the situation you described on the player's side?

There aren't any. Enemies don't use potions which increase damage resistance, nor have access to Rocharnar's Horn/Fortress Shield.

 

 

I won't even mention standard resistances which are always there, like those of the humblest of the Drow.

 

Magic resistance can be lowered, there's a number of spells which completely bypass it. Enemies can not lower your physical resistance.

 

 

And why shouldn't I consider Golems or other magical creatures that are immune to a plethora of different kind of attacks? Magical, physical, elemental...

Golem resistance has been in the game since it was released. Physical resistance on items/potions wasn't. You had only 2 items (Roch.Horn helmet nd Def.of Easthaven flail, and they were both absurd).

Fire Elemental immune to fire and similar stuff is fairly realistic in PnP terms.

 

But since the power escalates so much on one side

Which side? By the time physical resistance really comes to play, my party is usually equiped with at least four +4 weapons, and

start to resemble sort of a rape-train, blasting through encounters and enemies as if they're made out of paper. This is especially true at end of SoA.

 

 

accept the fact that enemies might buff themselves up to divine levels, thanks to sequencers, spells, potions or simply have innate powers that shift the odds heavily in their favor.

 

PCs can do the same. Nothing prevents Edwin from memorizing a sequencer prior to batte, or quaffing a Potion of Magic Shielding. The only innates which "heavilly shift the favour to enemy" are (imo, at least) Mellisan's abilities in Ascension. But it's not like your protagonist won't have a trick or two of his own by that time, including the allmighty extra 25% resistance to physical damage from defeating the Ravager.

 

 

Any resistance above 70% is broken? I might readily agree. Let's remove the chance for both player and AI to ever reach it and then we can talk...

Any physical resistance above 70 is broken, yes, since it's counter-productive - AI will choose different target if possible.

As I said, enemies simply don't have that resistances, apart two mentioned before. Golems do, but that's really nothing new.

Besdies, check the graph. Notice how effective HP "explodes" at values above 70%.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

What about all those enemies that reach temporary immunity thanks to potions and spells, which is just the situation you described on the player's side?

There aren't any. Enemies don't use potions which increase damage resistance, nor have access to Rocharnar's Horn/Fortress Shield.

 

Excuse me, but what does the PfMW do to a dragon other than give him total physical immunity from weapons of any sort ? Temporary, but that's not the point.

And what of the Jan's AdventureWear ? That's +25% physical resistance, hay.

 

PCs can do the same. Nothing prevents Edwin from memorizing a sequencer prior to batte, or quaffing a Potion of Magic Shielding.

Well if you like the game to take days time to face a few encounters with all optimized spell on, then yes, you can rape and pillage the world for all the centuries it's going to take... but don't force others to resolve to your methods.

PS, Edwin being dead kinda prevents that.