Should Gavin be corruptible in SoA?

[berelinde]

I've always believed that Gavin was unshakable in his beliefs. He's hesitant and not the most assertive character in the game. But he's always held true to his beliefs.

 

Somebody asked if it would be possible for a sufficiently charismatic evil Bhaalspawn to corrupt him. In Tutu, no. He won't have much to do with an evil PC at all, really. But now Tutu is winding down. I've only got 1 pre-Bhaal and 4 post-Bhaal LTs (the Bhaal discovery and the immediate aftermath are already written) and a bunch of flirts left to write. I'm starting to think about SoA.

 

In SoA, I was planning on allowing someone to continue a relationship that started in Tutu or develop a completely new one. If the player opts to play it like the PC and Gavin have never met, the relationship that forms will not develop the same way it would have in Tutu. The big discovery that takes 12 LTs to come out in Tutu can potentially be revealed within an hour of leaving Chateau Irenicus, so that's not going to be much of a factor in their relationship.

 

Here's the question: since a relationship that starts in SoA is going to be different, can it be comletely different, as in Gavin can be swayed by an evil and charismatic Bhaalspawn (and not necessarily only one in an active romance)? If the PC sets out to seduce Gavin to the side of darkness, should it work?

 

I've got nothing against giving somebody who wants to torture Gavin something to do. Abusing him was a big part of his career as a PnP character, and an endless source of amusement for our gaming group.

 

I also understand the desire to change the course of an NPC's development. I've tried to influence Sarevok before (with no success), and I'd try with Viconia if I didn't have to romance her to do it. So why not corrupt someone good?

 

Like I said, I always imagined that Gavin's faith was unshakable, but does it need to be? Word of warning, though, if I do decide to implement this possible story arc, and the PC does convert him to the dark side, things will not go as expected. For one thing, Gavin is a priest of a good deity. You might not like it.

[EiriktheScald]

I say it's your character; you know him better than anyone else. Go with your instincts. Unless you have a very good reason, don't compromise only to appeal to a larger audience.

[cmorgan]

no.

no no.

no no no.

no no no no.

 

 

just because the PC may have huge charisma and godlike power does not mean that a person of faith cannot remain incorruptible. In fact, I think a better story is Gavin hanging on to try to uncorrupt PC until the last possible moment, and when all else fails do the truely corageous thing - change sides in a climactic battle and assist others to destroy <charname>. A reverse Yoshimo, if you will.

 

Did I say no?

 

I thinhk I meant to say NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo.....

[berelinde]

Yeah, I think Gavin's religious convictions would not ever be shaken that much.

 

Plus, the guy has a 17 wisdom. If I had a wisdom that high, I wouldn't allow myself to be swayed by a convincing sales pitch, no matter how charismatic the salesman.

 

It's probably going to be more of the same: if the pc is evil and acts it, Gavin's going to try to persuade him/her to change his/her ways.

[Garfield]

Althoug I like the idea of a corruptible NPC, I don't see how you can corrupt a priest. They are supposed to be wise, so they do not get corrupted easily at all. When you dedicated your life to a God, you are not letting it go for no reason.

Also, if "unshakable" was your first plan, go ahead with it.

 

So I'll say no too

[Domi]

I firmly believe that corruption and redemption, while a fun game, should be used only if the NPC was written from the start as corruptable or redeamable. If he was planned to be a staunch good character then any such thing will look like a trick. The only redemption I bought in literature so far was Jaime's Lannister, and Jaime was asking for it even when the reader hated him in the Game of Thrones.

 

Darth Wader's both so called 'redemption' and 'corruptions' came out of the blue and happened by bouts. They were ridiculous.

 

But yep, it's your charcater and if you want him to be corruptable with all the consequences, ie him losing his kit or having a momentarily crisis of faith and then recovering and breaking up with the PC... though I'd think he'd quit the party at that point. Or reimain out of love and would watch his heart being broken.

 

Oh, one more thing, I said "no" to romancing the evil PC, but I don't define an 'evil' PC as evil by alignment. While Reputation is an unprecise scale, I like that one more plus PC responces to determine if PC's outlook and actions are incompatible with the romance.

[Nythrun]

I've always believed that Gavin was unshakable in his beliefs.

 

That's enough for me

[berelinde]

This is what I had envisioned for a possible conversion scenario:

 

1 Gavin does have a high wisdom. He is horrified at what he has become.

 

2 He breaks all ties with the pc and leaves the party, and the game immediately.

 

3 He goes off and presumably seeks redemption.

 

4 If the PC attempted to summon him through the fate spirit, he would be summoned as an enemy. Something along the lines of "Oh, I'll help <CHARNAME>, all right! Right into the next world! Die, evil Bhaalspawn!"

 

Anyway, Gavin's already survived one crisis of faith before the adventure even begins, and has already overcome whatever personal demons he might face. Given that background, he is at peace with his faith and with his god, and that is how he will stay.

 

In case there is any doubt: that means that Gavin will not befriend someone he believes to be evil, will not be convinced otherwise by a pretty face, and will remain firm in his faith.

 

Besides, there's no rule saying that I'm only ever going to write one NPC mod. Maybe some other time, I'll write one for the convertable saint, but I think he'll have to be a paladin, so he has further to fall.

[Domi]

Besides, there's no rule saying that I'm only ever going to write one NPC mod. Maybe some other time, I'll write one for the convertable saint, but I think he'll have to be a paladin, so he has further to fall.

 

Oh-oh! New mod idea alarm!!! I'm still hoping to keep you seduced into the Ilmaater's priest scheme

[Kitana]

In my opinion, keeping in mind that I don't know all that much about Gavin's character...

 

I'd really love to see the other way around made possible - Gavin 'redeeming' (or at least trying to redeem) an evil, romanced, PC, to neutral or possibly good. Not entirely sure how this would be done, but it's something I've always wanted to see in a mod.

[berelinde]

Taking it under consideration. It's possible, I think, and it would be something that Gavin would definitely attempt. He'd love to win people over to the good side.

 

I think it would be something that would *have* to be an add-on. For Gavin's relationship to have any influence over PC alignment, I would have to manipulate Player1's alignment with scripts. I would have ethical problems putting such a thing in place without clearly advising the player:

 

"If you install this component and then romance Gavin with an evil PC, Gavin will attempt to convert the PC to goodness. Your alignment may change! If you do not want your PC to be subjected to this, please do not install this component."

[Minarvia]

In my opinion, keeping in mind that I don't know all that much about Gavin's character...

 

I'd really love to see the other way around made possible - Gavin 'redeeming' (or at least trying to redeem) an evil, romanced, PC, to neutral or possibly good. Not entirely sure how this would be done, but it's something I've always wanted to see in a mod.

 

I quite agree. It would be nice to see. And as for Gavin and a crisis of faith...why not? I don't think anyone is perfect and even the best of people can have a crisis of faith or be influenced by someone he/she loves.

But he is your character. Don't do something that will compromise your own feelings or principles about him.

[Domi]

I'd too add my voice to "I like that idea". I think this will actually be a more interesting alternative to corruption of Gavin himself. And doing it in BG2 will allow you to have a credible romance path for those who don't want to play TUTU. Ie he didn't romance PC in BG1, because she was evil, but as BG2 progresses, he tries to understand if evil in her is actually that of her Father, and can be purged. If that happens, then you can direct her on the normal track

[cmorgan]

holy cow... now *that* is a good idea. Definitely the first time I would willingly play a neutral or evil character. A way to slowly actually follow the light, and change, instead of assuming that PC is static...

[berelinde]

I'm starting to think this might work. It would work for somebody whose relationship never started in Tutu because they were evil.

 

All things being equal, I think I'm going to take a leaf from Domi's book and make the assumption that Gavin was in the party at the end of BG1. It gets too messy otherwise.

 

And it would let me go with my idea of Gavin as someone who really really believes in the power of good to triumph over evil, even if it takes a while, and progress can only be measured in tiny steps, or by averages.

 

There would have to be some serious warning labels on this mod. In the "Is this mod teh cOOl?" thread, there was the joke about Auren making you gay. Well, Gavin really could make you good. Some players might prefer their evil characters be unmolested. I guess they could always just slap him down repeatedly.