Monks

[Grammarsalad]

Monks don't have a normal two-handed attack animation, it is used by MFIST attack - that punching/kicking. Interestingly, iirc they do have dual-wielding attack animation, but then they can't equip an offhand weapon due to MFISTs being two-handed.

 

Long story short, a while ago I did have devoted some time to solving this problem, and came up with nothing, short of changing monk's animation to a priest or whatever else.

 

Personally, I'm fine with this solution. Heck, I'd be fine if you replaced this class with a swordsage (3.5 tome of battle), psychic warrior, spell blade or some other interesting class. I might actually play one (edit-phone) somtime.

 

(edit 2) I suppose swordsage would be most appropriate. The class is robust enough to support a number of builds and concepts (including monk, ninja, spellblade, etc.)

[Grammarsalad]

Okay, I just read on a bgee bugfix report that they fixed a bug involving monk shield use. Specifically:

"monks and kensai are no longer able to equip shields."

 

link: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12848/bg-ee-the-patch-change-log-archives#latest

 

Listed in the "bug"section of v1.0.2012

 

...

Edit: so I'm clear, if it was possible for them to equip shields in the first place, does this mean that some of the issues discussed here are fixed in bgee?

[Demivrgvs]

Have you decided to resurrect the discussion of each and every class? Anyway, I'm sorry to disappoint you but afaik BGEE has fixed absolutely nothing regarding the monk class, it's still a mess in all its hardcoded glory!

 

BGEE even had the brilliant idea of adding two monk kits instead of fixing the old one, but mind you I actually believe I can handle all the three classes quite easily and make them cool.

 

Speaking of which, if either kreso or kalindor wish to test it I could probably finish the monk class very quickly.

[Grammarsalad]

Have you decided to resurrect the discussion of each and every class? Anyway, I'm sorry to disappoint you but afaik BGEE has fixed absolutely nothing regarding the monk class, it's still a mess in all its hardcoded glory!

 

BGEE even had the brilliant idea of adding two monk kits instead of fixing the old one, but mind you I actually believe I can handle all the three classes quite easily and make them cool.

 

Speaking of which, if either kreso or kalindor wish to test it I could probably finish the monk class very quickly.

 

Heh. Yeah, I have trouble staying on a single subject...

 

Can you make them wield a staff?

[Kalindor]

I am fine with testing the monk.

[Demivrgvs]

Have you decided to resurrect the discussion of each and every class? Anyway, I'm sorry to disappoint you but afaik BGEE has fixed absolutely nothing regarding the monk class, it's still a mess in all its hardcoded glory!

 

BGEE even had the brilliant idea of adding two monk kits instead of fixing the old one, but mind you I actually believe I can handle all the three classes quite easily and make them cool.

 

Speaking of which, if either kreso or kalindor wish to test it I could probably finish the monk class very quickly.

Heh. Yeah, I have trouble staying on a single subject...

 

Can you make them wield a staff?

No, it's hardcoded. That being said if you want a sort of staff-using monk I do suggest playing a Kensai which focuses on staves (you'd be surprised at how powerful it can be, especially with IR). It may not be so evident now because I still have to implement a full Ki Pool ability, but KR's Kensai is pretty much designed to be a Monk who focuses on weapons.

 

I am fine with testing the monk.

Cool...give me some time to create his own official topic then. Coding it is actually very easy in the end, but we need to quickly discuss quite a few things (none of them requires much time imo, it's mostly regarding AC, saves and thac0 progression rather than actual abilities). If you want a quick preview here's how the class more or less look like.

 

01: Unarmed Strike (1d6), Flurry of Blows, Mindful Defense, Ki Pool 1/day (Stunning Blow, Ki Dodge, Ki Step)

02:

03: Unarmed Strike (1d8), +1/2 apr

04: Ki Pool 2/day

05: Purity of Body (imm disease)

06: Unarmed Strike (1d8 +1), +1/2 apr

07: Wholeness of Body 1/day (LoH on self)

08: Ki Pool 3/day

09: Unarmed Strike (1d10 +1), +1/2 apr

10: Abundant Step (upgrade to Ki Step - SR's DD)

11: Diamond Body (imm poison)

12: Unarmed Strike (1d10 +2), +1/2 apr, Ki Pool 4/day

13: Quivering Palm 1/day

14: Diamond Soul (needs discussion)

15: Unarmed Strike (1d12 +2), +1/2 apr

16: Ki Pool 5/day

17: Timeless Body (immunity to slow?)

18: Unarmed Strike (1d12 +3), +1/2 apr

19: Empty Body (upgrade to Ki Dodge - more or less 1 round of full immunity)

20: Perfect Self (imm non-magic weap), Ki Pool 6/day

[Grammarsalad]

Well if anybody can salvage the monk it's you demI. I like f the "ki pool"and it's connection to the kensai (my favorite class). I so think that there is some room to go "off the map" a little bit with this class. Generally speaking one can divide what we call "martial arts" into a few general styles; eg: hard (kickboxing, tae kwon do), soft (aikido, judo) and mystic (tai chi, serpent style).

 

Now, each style lends itself well to the kit system with a given kit specializing in a particular style (eg the dark mon monk might be a "mystic"). given this, and the overall focus of kr, it is perfectly reasonable that the "base"class has elements of all three. But it would be nice to have a somewhat less linear (I'm trying not to say "static"but I can't help myself ) progression. all monks trend to look the same to me; they don't capture the variety and depth you find in popular literature (cf ninjas and superspies, any number of movies ,video games etc).

 

It would be cool if one had a little freedom to play their monk the way they want. I think this "ki pool"(or something like it it) has the potential to do this. I see things like shouts or stomps--with cool names like "eight horse stomp"-- that knock opponents over and damage them; the ability to focus their ki into single powerful blows; throw their opponents; harden their skin to withstand pain and damage for a short time, and so on.

 

Just throwing it out there but they could have a pool for each style. This would give them more options in a given encounter, simulate their unpredictability and variance, and make them much more fun imo.

[Demivrgvs]

On second thought, I'd like to discuss a couple of things (prepare yourself for the longest wall of text ever) before opening a new topic and writing down the "definitive" version of the class for the next beta (yes he could be included so soon).

 

I actually have in mind a couple of twists and very daring suggestions, but let's start from what I think are the main issues with the current Monk and see if we agree.

 

 

Hardcoded madness

First thing to remember, we have to deal with quite a few hardcoded things:

1) monk's fist "automatically" improve every 3 levels up to 18th level, then one last time at 24th within ToB

2) monk's base AC starts at 9 and automatically become 1 point better every other 2 levels

3) AC bonus vs. missiles starts at 3rd level, then increases by 1 point every 3 levels

 

1) This doesn't mean I can't change what monk's fist do, but that without hacking the exe any change or improvement to monk's fist have to take place at these fixed levels: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 24. In the end, this will surprisingly not be a huge problem imo.

 

2) I only need to point out one thing, hardcoded monk's AC is a "base AC" not an incremental bonus, thus bracers of armor actually don't work for monks within BG. I truly hate this, but as you'll see, we can actually overcome the issue. On a side note, the next version of IR will take this into account.

 

3) Nothing to say here. We can "counter" it with penalties if we want to change it, but we may as well just keep it as it is.

 

 

Monk's power level

From my own experience (which lacks BG1) and players feedback on various forums I'd say the general consensus is that the Monk:

a) is ridiculously weak at low levels (1-8)

b) is decent but not so great at mid levels (9-13)

c) becomes extremely powerful at high levels and kinda overpowered at epic levels (14+)

 

a) There are many causes to this:

* mediocre accuracy and damage output for a melee warrior (unlike PnP he uses the best thac0 progression, but even with that he cannot start with exceptional strength, his fists only deal 1d6 dmg with 1 apr, and he cannot get specialization's +1 hit +2 dmg - the difference with warriors was even worse with vanilla's spec giving +1/2 apr too)

* mediocre hit points (again, he's a priest, so he rolls d8 for hit points and does not get CON bnouses from scores higher than 16)

* extremely bad armor class (he starts even worse than a kensai, and it becomes only slightly better than a kensai at level 5 - unlike PnP WIS doesn't improve monk's AC)

* fist are considered non-magical until level 9, too late imo

 

I'll handle this by improving monk's damage output potential (you'll see how - this is one of those daring ideas) and then we just have to decide which armor class we want him to have taking into account that he cannot even use bracers to improve it and that his base AC bonuses don't stack with spells such as Spirit Armor.

 

b) not much to say here, by improving low levels I think mid levels will be only slightly better reaching a very fine level of power.

 

c) With two level up (levels 14 and 15) the Monk suddenly get an absurdly high magic resistance (42%+3% per level, are you f*****g kidding me?!?) and his fists go from 1d12 (+2 enchantment) to 1d20 (+3 enchantment), making a warrior's greatsword look like a toothpick. On top of that he also +1 bonus to AC (+2 vs. missiles), and +1/2 apr, everything with just 2 levels. From there on the Monk's power level continue to increase faster than other warriors (1d20 base dmg, great thac0, 4 attacks per round, best saves, 50%+ magic resistance...need I say more?).

I'm not saying the Monk is a broken class within ToB, but I do think it is kinda overpowered (mostly because of the absurdly high magic resistance imo, which makes Wizard Slayers wish to change their profession).

 

 

Monk's abilities

As seen in my previous post this is a first draft of the class template, which still doesn't include everything.

 

01: Unarmed Strike (1d6), Flurry of Blows, Mindful Defense, Ki Pool 1/day (Stunning Blow, Ki Dodge, Ki Step)

02:

03: Unarmed Strike (1d8), +1/2 apr

04: Ki Pool 2/day

05: Purity of Body (imm disease)

06: Unarmed Strike (1d8 +1), +1/2 apr

07: Wholeness of Body 1/day (LoH on self)

08: Ki Pool 3/day

09: Unarmed Strike (1d10 +1), +1/2 apr

10: Abundant Step (upgrade to Ki Step - SR's DD)

11: Diamond Body (imm poison)

12: Unarmed Strike (1d10 +2), +1/2 apr, Ki Pool 4/day

13: Quivering Palm 1/day

14: Diamond Soul (needs discussion)

15: Unarmed Strike (1d12 +2), +1/2 apr

16: Ki Pool 5/day

17: Timeless Body (immunity to level drain?)

18: Unarmed Strike (1d12 +3), +1/2 apr

19: Empty Body (upgrade to Ki Dodge - more or less 1 round of full immunity)

20: Perfect Self (imm non-magic weap), Ki Pool 6/day

 

 

Thac0 progression

I would actually keep the current one (same as warriors). It might seem too good, but even with that the Monk isn't as accurate as a warrior because he doesn't get prof points and weapon bonuses.

 

Saves progression

I've not yet included the revised table, but within it the Monk has the best all around saves (all normal saves, no bad or good ones). Within 3E he actually starts with good saves vs. everything, but I think the character progression might be a better place to improve monk's saves rather than giving him everything from 1st level.

 

Unarmed Strike

As following:

Level 1-2: 1d6

Level 3-5: 1d8

Level 6-8: 1d8 + 1 (the +1 enchantment also includes +1 to hit and damage)

Level 9-11: 1d10 + 1

Level 12-14: 1d10 + 2

Level 15-17: 1d12 + 2

Level 18+: 1d12 + 3

 

Instead of vanilla's:

Level 1-2: 1d6

Level 3-5: 1d8

Level 6-8: 1d10

Level 9-11: 1d12 + 1

Level 12-14: 1d12 + 2

Level 15+: 1d120 + 3

 

My suggested fist dmg has a lower cap but...

 

Flurry of Blows

This is the big deal, I want to make the Monk start with a sort of permanent Flurry of Blow, aka 2 attacks per round at 1st level. It might seem OP but you have to consider the sub-optimal thac0 and dmg output (only 1d6).

 

At 3rd level and every 3 levels the monk gets his hardcoded +1/2 apr with unarmed strikes, up to 5 apr at 18th level.

 

Mindful Defense

I think the Monk should not be a tank, but not as bad as he is now, thus I propose to make him start with at least AC 7, if not 6.

 

Considering all we have said before Monk's AC should then increase every 2 or 3 levels, and I'd dare to say we should keep vanilla's fast progression.

 

Ki Pool

This is pretty much as per Pathfinder. Unlike Pathfinder I'm including Stunning Fist within it as it seems the kinda obvious choice. At higher level Ki Step and Ki Dodge will "evolve" into two classic abilities from PnP, Abundant Step (which will work exactly as the current SR's Dimension Door) and Empty Body (complete immunity for 1 round - cannot attack).

 

I still don't know how many uses of Ki per day we should grant, I'm starting with 1 every 4 levels, but we might opt for more "Ki points" (e.g. 1 every 3 levels) considering Pathfinder grants 1 point every 2 levels + WIS bonus. It also depends on how many abilities we want to merge into this one. For example Wholeness of Body shares the Ki pool too within Pathfinder (expending 2 Ki points instead of 1 - something I probably cannot reproduce, but it's just a matter of making it cure half as much for single use and we have the same result).

 

In the future we might expand the whole concept even more, and BGEE kits will get their own different Ki Pool (e.g. the Sun Soul Monk could get Flaming Fist instead of Stunning Blow, a fireshield-like ability instead of Ki Dodge, and so on.).

 

Purity of Body & Diamond Body

I'm not a huge fan of these, but they have always been there, so they'll stay. Mind you, AD&D really made the Monk immune to both slow and haste at level 5, and the concept could somehow fit...I'm not sure though.

 

Vanilla's Monk also got immunity to charm at level 9, as a sort of upgrade to Still Mind I guess (vanilla's +2 to saves vs. spells) and while 3E didn't opted for it, D&D Next not only restores it but also make the Monk immune to fear (both immunities are gained at level 7 with the Clear Mind ability). I'm not sure what to do...

 

Quivering Palm

I'm considering to make it the obvious upgrade of Stunning Fist, but it might be best to keep the two abilities separate unless QP is heavily nerfed. Just for information, D&D Next is nerfing it incredibly (too much imo), making it require 3 consecutive saves to kill.

 

Diamond Soul

This is the most problematic thing to discuss. Once again D&D Next is going to do what I said two years ago here, replacing magic resistance with "advantage on saves vs spells", aka better saves. If it was just me me I'd simply replace spell resistance with +2 to all saves (which would give monks unrivaled good saves vs everything), but I fear many players might not like it, am I wrong?

 

If magic resistance has to stay, it surely needs to be nerfed a lot, because getting 42% mr with a single level up is simply ridiculous imo.

 

Timeless Body

Ehm...no idea. Either immunity to level drain or we simply replace it with something else entirely, an ability taken from some PnP Monk variant, archetype or PrC.

 

Perfect Self

Not sure how valuable immunity to non-magical weapons can be at 20th level. I think Pathfinder's archetypes allow to pick better alternatives such as a permanent +1 to STR, DEX, WIS. D&D Next follows a similar idea but I think they drunk too much when they wrote down the current version: "All of your ability scores that are lower than 20 become 20." LOL

 

I need some rest now...

[kreso]

I only need to point out one thing, hardcoded monk's AC is a "base AC" not an incremental bonus, thus bracers of armor actually don't work for monks within BG. I truly hate this, but as you'll see, we can actually overcome the issue. On a side note, the next version of IR will take this into account.

Bracers will add +x to AC instead of what they do now?

 

Missile AC bonus Nothing to say here. We can "counter" it with penalties if we want to change it, but we may as well just keep it as it is.

It's fine I guess.

 

Monk's power level

From my own experience (which lacks BG1) and players feedback on various forums I'd say the general consensus is that the Monk:

a) is ridiculously weak at low levels (1-8)

b) is decent but not so great at mid levels (9-13)

c) becomes extremely powerful at high levels and kinda overpowered at epic levels (14+)

I have played a monk from Candlekeep to ToB (using Refinements to add some HLA flavour to them). It's the only character I played the whole BGT with.

He is weak in BG1, but not so much as people claim him to be. He is weaker than fighters and warriors in general (they get low AC fast), but stealth and Stunning blow are nice indeed (Stealth is very powerful in BG1). I liked him. SR add some more options like Barkskin and Bless which are helpful.

BG2 - decent. One thing bothered me immensly - that +2 upgrade to his fist comes very late somehow (I don't squat for exp, I like to play as intended). I hate when my protagonist, Child of Bhaal, can't hit something.

14 + levels - he's ok....but honestly, a decently equiped fighter would mop the floor with him. Immunity to Haste and Slow starts to turn into "inability to be Hasted" so he's stuck with 4 APR while your dual-wielders enjoy imp.haste benefits. There are also more powerful weapons than his fists (big damage from fists, but you get Vorpals, Level Drains, Elemental damage, different immunities etc on your fighters) and he's stuck with his damage. His MR is his Trump card, ofc. But it does get lowered with SCS2 install. Then he gets quite weak.

 

* fist are considered non-magical until level 9, too late imo

Agreed.

 

Unarmed Strike

Level 6-8: 1d8 + 1 (the +1 enchantment also includes +1 to hit and damage)

Like it.

 

Flurry of Blows

This is the big deal, I want to make the Monk start with a sort of permanent Flurry of Blow, aka 2 attacks per round at 1st level. It might seem OP but you have to consider the sub-optimal thac0 and dmg output (only 1d6).

It's not OP, I assure you. It actually makes sense.

 

At 3rd level and every 3 levels the monk gets his hardcoded +1/2 apr with unarmed strikes, up to 5 apr at 18th level.

Nice. More apr, less damage. Balances out nicely.

 

Mindful Defense

I think the Monk should not be a tank, but not as bad as he is now, thus I propose to make him start with at least AC 7, if not 6.

I'd like to see how you're gonna tweak bracers before saying how this works out.

 

Ki Pool

This is pretty much as per Pathfinder. Unlike Pathfinder I'm including Stunning Fist within it as it seems the kinda obvious choice. At higher level Ki Step and Ki Dodge will "evolve" into two classic abilities from PnP, Abundant Step (which will work exactly as the current SR's Dimension Door) and Empty Body (complete immunity for 1 round - cannot attack).

Ummm...doesn't SR "Dimension door" works similar to Maze? Not sure about this.

 

Purity of Body & Diamond Body

I'm not a huge fan of these, but they have always been there, so they'll stay. Mind you, AD&D really made the Monk immune to both slow and haste at level 5, and the concept could somehow fit...I'm not sure though.

I hate Haste immunity.

 

Vanilla's Monk also got immunity to charm at level 9, as a sort of upgrade to Still Mind I guess (vanilla's +2 to saves vs. spells) and while 3E didn't opted for it, D&D Next not only restores it but also make the Monk immune to fear (both immunities are gained at level 7 with the Clear Mind ability). I'm not sure what to do...

Immune to Fear .... against it. For Charm - not sure. He isn't a Paladin. I'd focus more on saves for Monk.

 

 

Diamond Soul

This is the most problematic thing to discuss. Once again D&D Next is going to do what I said two years ago here, replacing magic resistance with "advantage on saves vs spells", aka better saves. If it was me I'd simply replace spell resistance with +2 to all saves (which would give monks unrivaled good saves vs everything), but I fear many players might not like it, am I wrong?

I would. MR is just wrong on them.

 

Timeless Body

Ehm...no idea. Either immunity to level drain or we simply replace it with something else entirely, an ability taken from some PnP Monk variant, archetype or PrC.

I'd say no for Level Drain immunity, moreover if they keep immunity to Charm. He'd be better vs vampires than UH.

[Demivrgvs]

I only need to point out one thing, hardcoded monk's AC is a "base AC" not an incremental bonus, thus bracers of armor actually don't work for monks within BG. I truly hate this, but as you'll see, we can actually overcome the issue. On a side note, the next version of IR will take this into account.

Bracers will add +x to AC instead of what they do now?

Ehm...no, I thought about it but I don't like the idea of bracers working in different ways depending on the class wearing them (and we obviously don't want bracers to grant +x AC for all other classes). Furthermore KR's classes are supposed to work even without IR.

 

What I meant simply was that KR will make bracers correctly mention that monks don't benefit from them (they can still benefit from gauntles though, such as Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Gauntlets of Dexterity). "In exchange" we might instead add a unique specimens for monks (we only have the Gauntlets of Crushing right now - a pair of gauntlets which adds lightning dmg for example could be fun) or for example allow them to use the Gauntlets of Healing.

 

Ki Pool

This is pretty much as per Pathfinder. Unlike Pathfinder I'm including Stunning Fist within it as it seems the kinda obvious choice. At higher level Ki Step and Ki Dodge will "evolve" into two classic abilities from PnP, Abundant Step (which will work exactly as the current SR's Dimension Door) and Empty Body (complete immunity for 1 round - cannot attack).

Ummm...doesn't SR "Dimension door" works similar to Maze? Not sure about this.

That's Shadow Door, not Dimension Door.

 

Abundant Step will be an instantaneous teleport withing line of sight.

 

Vanilla's Monk also got immunity to charm at level 9, as a sort of upgrade to Still Mind I guess (vanilla's +2 to saves vs. spells) and while 3E didn't opted for it, D&D Next not only restores it but also make the Monk immune to fear (both immunities are gained at level 7 with the Clear Mind ability). I'm not sure what to do...

Immune to Fear .... against it. For Charm - not sure. He isn't a Paladin. I'd focus more on saves for Monk.

I share your concern, I was just following PnP. On second thought, even 3E has immunity to charm, they simply moved it very late, at level 20 with Perfect Self.

 

Diamond Soul

This is the most problematic thing to discuss. Once again D&D Next is going to do what I said two years ago here, replacing magic resistance with "advantage on saves vs spells", aka better saves. If it was me I'd simply replace spell resistance with +2 to all saves (which would give monks unrivaled good saves vs everything), but I fear many players might not like it, am I wrong?

I would. MR is just wrong on them.

Good to know I'm not the only one thinking that.

 

Timeless Body

Ehm...no idea. Either immunity to level drain or we simply replace it with something else entirely, an ability taken from some PnP Monk variant, archetype or PrC.

I'd say no for Level Drain immunity, moreover if they keep immunity to Charm. He'd be better vs vampires than UH.

I'll look for PnP alternate features...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Timeless Body

I'll look for PnP alternate features...

Why... timeless body... well, is not affected by Timestop. Snap.

[Kalindor]

Agree with kreso that the monk is not a paladin: I would opt against immunities (except of the free action variety) and instead give the monk unparalleled saves.

 

I also think Magic Resistance is a bit odd on the monk. If you want to keep it, make it something subtle like 1% per level. I would be in favor of removing it entirely.

 

I'm not sure about the flavor of this class yet. Nothing calls out to me that makes me really want to play a monk from your description, although the Ki insta-teleport is cool, but nothing else strikes me as something none of the other warriors can accomplish. Is he just a slowly-evolving warrior with better saves?

 

*Edit: OK, as Jarno said immunity to Timestop would make it appealing.

[Demivrgvs]

Agree with kreso that the monk is not a paladin: I would opt against immunities (except of the free action variety) and instead give the monk unparalleled saves.

 

I also think Magic Resistance is a bit odd on the monk. If you want to keep it, make it something subtle like 1% per level. I would be in favor of removing it entirely.

Conceptually I can obviously agree...I still find hard to remove some of them because of PnP, but I would indeed prefer less immunities and more resistances or cool abilities.

 

I'm not sure about the flavor of this class yet. Nothing calls out to me that makes me really want to play a monk from your description, although the Ki insta-teleport is cool, but nothing else strikes me as something none of the other warriors can accomplish. Is he just a slowly-evolving warrior with better saves?

Point taken. My plan was to first rebalance it (while making it more close to PnP) and then expand the most important aspect of the "new concept", aka the Ki Pool. If you wish so I can easily put more ideas on the table, mostly taken from Pathfinder's Quinggong archetype.

 

Would the class appeal improve by adding Ki Arrow (a powerful ranged ki blast) and Ki Shout (AoE blast of ki energy which can potentially stun victims - already planned as Kensai HLA)?

 

*Edit: OK, as Jarno said immunity to Timestop would make it appealing.

Well, as long as it's not a permanent feature, but a once/day ability, we might even try it (though it would fit best an HLA imo), but I'm 99% sure it's best to avoid it, simply because the AI (not even SCS AI) is prepared to counter a PC character immune to TS. Otho...

 

Do you want me to make a really really crazy suggestion? Taking again inspiration from Pathfinder's Monk of the Four Winds...what about a "Slow Time" ability, aka a 1 round Time Stop? Would it be completely broken? I think not if it's just 1 round... Ok, I'm officialy more crazy than Jarno now.

 

 

Edit: one more thing, much less crazy. I'd like to implement the grappling maneuver too somehow, but I'm still figuring out a way to make it work fine.

[Kalindor]

If you wish so I can easily put more ideas on the table, mostly taken from Pathfinder's Quinggong archetype.

If you want to test it sooner rather than later, I think we should include as many of the possible abilities as is feasible.

 

Would the class appeal improve by adding Ki Arrow (a powerful ranged ki blast) and Ki Shout (AoE blast of ki energy which can potentially stun victims - already planned as Kensai HLA)?

Yes, I think these would be nice additions. They seem fine to me when thinking about the Dragonball Z monk archetype (LOL). It seems like Ki could be channeled as a projectile of force if not energy. I wonder if the others think this is too arcane-seeming?

 

Well, as long as it's not a permanent feature, but a once/day ability, we might even try it (though it would fit best an HLA imo), but I'm 99% sure it's best to avoid it, simply because the AI (not even SCS AI) is prepared to counter a PC character immune to TS. Otho...

Does SCS AI rely so heavily upon Timestop that immunity to it would be game-breaking? *Edit: If so, it sounds like it may need to be nerfed!

 

Do you want me to make a really really crazy suggestion? Taking again inspiration from Pathfinder's Monk of the Four Winds...what about a "Slow Time" ability, aka a 1 round Time Stop? Would it be completely broken? I think not if it's just 1 round... Ok, I'm officialy more crazy than Jarno now.

Slow Time could start as a Slow effect on foes in a radius around the monk (not a perfect solution because projectiles would not be slowed, ruining the illusion). It could then improve to stopped time later or with an HLA. Either way, I am fine with this. It is a pity that you can't make abilities use up more than one Ki point.

[Jarno Mikkola]

*Edit: OK, as Jarno said immunity to Timestop would make it appealing.

Well, as long as it's not a permanent feature, but a once/day ability, we might even try it (though it would fit best an HLA imo), but I'm 99% sure it's best to avoid it, simply because the AI (not even SCS AI) is prepared to counter a PC character immune to TS. Otho...

 

Do you want me to make a really really crazy suggestion? Taking again inspiration from Pathfinder's Monk of the Four Winds...what about a "Slow Time" ability, aka a 1 round Time Stop? Would it be completely broken? I think not if it's just 1 round... Ok, I'm officialy more crazy than Jarno now.

Well, immunity to the effect can be seen by the AI, so I see no bad sides on that, but if you make it temporary ability... it says it's not a monks innate ability which it should be... but erhm, I see no point in the Slow Time ability unless you make it an instant ability, as the real Time Stop lasts the entire turn to execute which is the same turn he gets a free by the means...