Bishop and Casavir Pro's and Con's

[Avalonofthebluemists44]

first off, I would like to say that Domi and Berelinde did great jobs with writing these characters and their stories. I know it takes a lot of effort to make characters and make them intriguing to talk to and interact with.

 

This post is about the pros and cons of these 2 guys.

 

Cas-Pros

 

He is very sweet and a good person. He listens to PC with interest and hears what she has to say. He also strives to look out for PC and cares very much about her well-being. If he were a real person he;d be good to have in a long term relationship. He is always wanting to do the right thing and can be very forgiving as well.

 

Cons-Too rigid at times and always expects (or close to it) lawful acts from the PC and doesn't approve of "chaotic" behavior or rather in my opinion, free spirited behavior as in not caring what society expects of them and doing their own thing no matter how sassy or unlawful it is. Very shy at times although this could be somewhat both a pro and con as it also takes effort to try to get close to him which some may find appealing. Not as understanding as Bishop would be let's say if PC has a bad day and goes off the deep end or snaps at others or otherwise gets very feisty.

 

All in all, Cas is a good companion to have around and cares about PC very much.

 

As for Bishop-

 

Pros-

 

Does what he pleases without caring what others think of it or him, is very attractive and compelling b/c his character has alot of depth and mystery more so than Cas. If inf. is high with him, he'll reveal more about himself to PC that he strives to be good but feels he can't achieve this (at least from what I;ve heard others say) bc of his complex past. Can be sweet AT TIMES and his words to PC regarding his feelings for her have way more punch to them than Casavir's which some may also find really interesting as he doesn't try to cover them up. He reveals his feelings more openly than Cas and his actions toward PC in that way have more bite than Cas. Some may prefer a let's say jalapeno hot relationship rather than a lukewarm one is how I'd describe it. Also, one more thing, he believes in the abilities of PC and has confidence in her skills and favors her over everyone else. That make him appealing as PC feels singled out in a good way, he makes her feel special and that this is coming from a total hottie.

 

Cons- Is rude alot for no apparent reason, strives to be as jerkish as possible and says to PC that she will never know him and that he prefers it that way. He feels showing emotion and "being tied down" to be weaknesses and they're not. He thinks doing good to be unneccessary and a waste and cares only about his welfare and himself, (with the exception of the PC) . Can be very selfish, and despises his feelings for PC and tries to hate her as well as despising himself.

 

In summary, he is attractive and compelling with depth but is very callous and uncaring about others. (with of course the exception of PC again).

 

I would like to know what others think about the pros and cons of the two guys, and what I have talked about here.

[Raenemon]

first off, I would like to say that Domi and Berelinde did great jobs with writing these characters and their stories. I know it takes a lot of effort to make characters and make them intriguing to talk to and interact with.

 

This post is about the pros and cons of these 2 guys.

 

Cas-Pros

 

He is very sweet and a good person. He listens to PC with interest and hears what she has to say. He also strives to look out for PC and cares very much about her well-being. If he were a real person he;d be good to have in a long term relationship. He is always wanting to do the right thing and can be very forgiving as well.

 

Cons-Too rigid at times and always expects (or close to it) lawful acts from the PC and doesn't approve of "chaotic" behavior or rather in my opinion, free spirited behavior as in not caring what society expects of them and doing their own thing no matter how sassy or unlawful it is. Very shy at times although this could be somewhat both a pro and con as it also takes effort to try to get close to him which some may find appealing. Not as understanding as Bishop would be let's say if PC has a bad day and goes off the deep end or snaps at others or otherwise gets very feisty.

 

All in all, Cas is a good companion to have around and cares about PC very much.

 

As for Bishop-

 

Pros-

 

Does what he pleases without caring what others think of it or him, is very attractive and compelling b/c his character has alot of depth and mystery more so than Cas. If inf. is high with him, he'll reveal more about himself to PC that he strives to be good but feels he can't achieve this (at least from what I;ve heard others say) bc of his complex past. Can be sweet AT TIMES and his words to PC regarding his feelings for her have way more punch to them than Casavir's which some may also find really interesting as he doesn't try to cover them up. He reveals his feelings more openly than Cas and his actions toward PC in that way have more bite than Cas. Some may prefer a let's say jalapeno hot relationship rather than a lukewarm one is how I'd describe it. Also, one more thing, he believes in the abilities of PC and has confidence in her skills and favors her over everyone else. That make him appealing as PC feels singled out in a good way, he makes her feel special and that this is coming from a total hottie.

 

Cons- Is rude alot for no apparent reason, strives to be as jerkish as possible and says to PC that she will never know him and that he prefers it that way. He feels showing emotion and "being tied down" to be weaknesses and they're not. He thinks doing good to be unneccessary and a waste and cares only about his welfare and himself, (with the exception of the PC) . Can be very selfish, and despises his feelings for PC and tries to hate her as well as despising himself.

 

In summary, he is attractive and compelling with depth but is very callous and uncaring about others. (with of course the exception of PC again).

 

I would like to know what others think about the pros and cons of the two guys, and what I have talked about here.

 

 

You offer up some great questions. I have tried exploring the diffferences of each man in my fanfic "A Memoir of Demons and Angels" just because the possible romance and relationships seemed so intriguing from the very first time I played the game.

 

I think Casavir, as he existed in the OC, was sadly underdeveloped. The way your PC meets him at Old Owl Well is rather spectacular. But then this leader of men, this renegade, just starts tagging along with my PC, serving mostly as target practice for Bishop's barbs. (growl)

 

The way I wrote it, Casavir is searching for the will of Tyr, which seems to be carried out by the actions of the PC, but he's much more active and multidimensional---with a history of his own.

 

As for Bishop, what was there not to love and hate? He drew a strong reaction, no matter which side of the fence your PC eventually came down on. He ended up being just a tease in the OC, but I found him to be more deveopled as a character than the original Casavir. Who doesn't like the tragic, sarcastic anti-hero---even if you can smell his 'sudden betrayal' coming from a mile away? The romance pack really made Bishop really, well, romantic.

 

All in all, the Romance Pack added tension by fleshing out each of these romances (as well as with Gann. I have to mention Gann because I wrote several of those flirts. But it is a hard job to come up wth something thst would make Gann intriguing as an individual and a romantic interest when most players were already emotionally invested in either Bishop or Casavir from the OC).

 

For my own reasons, I wrote a my fanfic to tie up the loose ends between the OC and MoB...and to make the PC's stake in taking down the Wall of the Faithless a very personal one. Also, I couldn't resist keeping and practically re-casting some characters and events (I won't give any more away, but it will become apparent in time). Ultimately, I made changes to make the story of Amara Chidi as compelling as I could. Only time will tell if it is effective.

 

But I would not have written anything if the seeds weren't already there in the OC, and which began to blossom in the Romance Pack.

[Avalonofthebluemists44]

thanks for responding to my post. after almost the whole day of reading NWN2 fanfic (yes I know I have entirely too much time on my hands) (grimaces)

 

But I would be interested in reading your fanfic. I am also somewhat of a writer as I have written poetry in the past and have (maybe) considering writing something of my own about the 2 guys. Having not yet played MotB I can't comment on Gann except for what I have heard from others. He has a sarcastic wit and sense of humor (like me) and is more in the middle between the other 2 alignment wise and personality wise.

 

Anyhoo, NWN2 is sooo addicting it is like sitting down to read (or play!) a great

novel. And the music adds to that feeling. Oops got off track here.

 

But mainly my post was to explore the pros and cons of Bishop and Casavir and discuss them with others who are interested in them and their characters.

The Romance Pack reaaallly adds more dimension to the relationships in the game as the other unmodified felt...well... empty kinda devoid of a lot of things that the game developers had to take out whether due to lack of time, not as interested in developing more in that way, or some other reason. I do agree with you Bishop is more romantic in the romance version (sometimes) than in the original, as you couldn't do anything of the sort in the original OC to romance him. Or even Casavir for that matter. There was one line, possibly 1 or 2 others in the unmodified version where you could "flirt" with Cas like for example, when Cas tells PC he doesn't like the way Bishop looks at PC and PC has option of saying, "Jealous?" And also "are you saying you have feelings for me", says PC. That was about as far as it got romantic wise as the developers obviously did not devote much of their time and interest in expanding it further.

And of course, the near end of the game sequence where you could take Cas back to the PC's chambers. and Bishop sees that and gets jealous as in his line at the last part of the game. " Don;t think I didn't see you and the paladin earlier."

[Matilda]

Bishop Pros: tough, a survivor, independent, sexy looks & voice, skilled, witty, love his biting remarks

 

Bishop Cons: self-absorbed, chip on his shoulder, weak in a way that he could not overcome his apparent childhood adversities (but you can't really fault him for that), murderer, he betrays the KC, selfish

 

Casavir Pros: Grounded, trustworthy, loyal, skilled, mature, understanding (even of chaotic behavior unless it's lying), selfless and in my humble opinion, gorgeous

 

Casavir Cons: too grave, needs some liveliness, the epitome of control

 

It's interesting how so many women automatically assume Bishop would be great in the sack. Perhaps but what evidence is there to suggest it? The man is self-absorbed. He'd be concerned about his own orgasm and pay little attention to the needs of his partner. Casavir, on the other hand, assuming he's not a total klutz, will want to do those things to please a woman. And given he's had a relationship with the worldly Ophala, he may have learned a lot how to please a woman.

 

And ladies, still waters run deep. Just because Casavir is quiet and refuses to wear his heart on his sleeve, he's conflicted and feels deeply. Shallow people are not likely to be conflicted between "right" and "wrong." I've also thought that Casavir exhibited some "renegade" tendencies departing Neverwinter the way he did and providing anonymous service to Callum at Old Owl Well. And his actions suggest he is more concerned about being "good" than "lawful."

 

I love both of them, but Casavir is truly the superior character.

[Avalonofthebluemists44]

I agree with all the above said, well, most of it anyway, but I think Bishop is more appealing to women because of his 'wild wolf like nature' something like that, and has more layers upon layers of mystery where as Cas to some seems like a bore

I like both personally but as obviously I mentioned both have faults and advantages (but then again who the heck doesn't)

 

as for Bishop in the sack.....

well that;s left up for debate....

 

interesting topic though......

[berelinde]

I'd argue with Bishop's ability to tolerate somebody who's having a bad day or getting a bit snappish. Experience tells me that those who get that way themselves on a fairly regular basis seem to be less tolerant of their partner's moods. It might just be me, since I'm usually such a placid person that occasional fits of pique come as a huge shock, but the only ones who have been able to weather the rough patches are those with a fair amount of emotional maturity themselves.

[Domi]

I actually view Bishop's betrayal as a pro for Bishop as opposite to con. It makes the lovestory more interesting to me. As well, his deeper involvment with the story-line of the game, and the parallel his romance theme has to the main story-line in the MotB just makes it into a superior romantic opportunity for me. I guess, I am not so much on the looking at a game romance from the 'stud' perspective side, as from the 'cool story' side. Bishop's story and Bishop-PC romance is a winner for me from over Casavir, as much as Casavir is definetly a wonderful character with a sweet disposition and violet eyes (I am wondering if they planned to make him an aasimar tbh because of those eyes).

 

As for GR8'n'BED, I simply assume that Bishop's moody and passionate nature will translate in the similar behavoir between the sheets, which is sort of what I like in game romances for my adventurous protagonists.

 

I guess that's why I eventually preffered Bishop over Sand and Casavir. Well, the fact that I was bitterly dissappointed in Sand as a character in Act II helped as well.

[Avalonofthebluemists44]

Sand doesn't appeal to me for a game romance. But I do think he has a sense of humor and LOTS of sarcasm (like me) which makes him interesting in that fashion. But as for "studly" looks, no. Not saying that elves can't be attractive as I loved Orlando Bloom's character Legolas in the LOTR trilogy. Now that one had appeal but others say he was too girly. Ummm... hello... elves are supposed to be somewhat feminine looking but to me his character didn't seem that girlish.

 

Anyway, oops got off track. Bad me, bad me, I think it would be nice, as for the gates betrayal that PC had some kind of diplomacy and/or influence check to not only get him to back off from the battle at the end but to rejoin KC's side as a companion yet again. But oh well, the game dev. didn't make it out to be that way. Or would that detract from some of the romance appeal of Bishop's romance to you, Domi? B/c it seems to me that might put some, if not just a little closure to the OC game romance between KC and Bishop if he decided maybe she is worth fighting for his life after all and doesn't completely betray her at the end leaving some unfinished things somewhat more defined romance wise.

[Domi]

It will - I don't like re-dressing the material too much. I kind of delight in the fact that the OC and MotB gives an opportunity to serve it up as a harder, draker, more ambigous romance with no traditional promises.

[Matilda]

I actually view Bishop's betrayal as a pro for Bishop as opposite to con. It makes the lovestory more interesting to me. As well, his deeper involvment with the story-line of the game, and the parallel his romance theme has to the main story-line in the MotB just makes it into a superior romantic opportunity for me.

 

Good stuff, Domi. You take an interesting perspective of Bishop's betrayal. To me, the betrayal is more evidence of his incapacity to love and to accept love; the ingredients of a tragic relationship.

 

But I sympathize with your attraction to Bishop's brooding and passionate nature -- admittedly, he was my favorite during my first run through the game. But alas, what often happens with tempestuous relationships, my KC's attraction to Bishop burned out the second time I tried my hand at NWN2. At that point, she was smitten by the quiet, sweet, Casavir.

 

Gods bless you for Bishop's Romance and gods bless Berelinde for Casavir's Romance.

[Guest fax_]

Incapacity to love? I disagree. The way I see it, someone can live a life that provides him/her with a certain natural disposition which they perceive inwardly as the person they are. The consequence of this backward-conception is a self perpetuating reinforcement of character, which results in one taking actions in accordance with the given pursuasion he sees himself as having, or rather 'ought to have' in order to be true to themselves. In reality, there is no constant 'truth to oneself' nor any necessity for such a constancy to exist, only an infinite number of different perceptions taken at different points in time from different agents (for example, from me of myself today, from my peers to myself tomorrow, and from a stranger to myself yesterday). Private determination of action is thus heavily influenced by human need for continuity.

 

The issue comes when an external force seeks to disturb this illusory self-established equilibrium. For example, an inherent physical and psychological attraction or (as I rather see it: a becoming accustomed to the presence of another) will seek to destroy an equilibrium whereby the individual in question perceives himself to be an unlovable. Reinforced by years of continuity, the person will try to compensate for the misbalance, perhaps by reinforcing his strength in resolution over his own disposition (thus acting to betray), to take comfort in self-knowledge and certainty. This does not mean such a person is unable to love, in fact, this inner conflict is very evidence of such strong feelings itself.

 

Most people do things which they regret silently later. It may be extremely difficult (nigh impossible) to establish a stable relationship with the people described, but that does not mean they have no emotional attachment or are unable to appreciate it when they receive it. It probably means they do not know how they should respond, or feel subjectively that they 'ought' to reject it, even when they want nothing less.

 

(The last sentence seems paradoxical, after all: if I want one thing, I do not choose another, hooray for revealed preference - but its partly a matter of the balance of wants, and the fact that one want is of a dutiful nature, the other of an emotional nature, which I can, arguably, be seperated, with the latter alone consisting of the definition of 'love' for the sake of this argument)

[Avalonofthebluemists44]

Incapacity to love? I disagree. The way I see it, someone can live a life that provides him/her with a certain natural disposition which they perceive inwardly as the person they are. The consequence of this backward-conception is a self perpetuating reinforcement of character, which results in one taking actions in accordance with the given pursuasion he sees himself as having, or rather 'ought to have' in order to be true to themselves. In reality, there is no constant 'truth to oneself' nor any necessity for such a constancy to exist, only an infinite number of different perceptions taken at different points in time from different agents (for example, from me of myself today, from my peers to myself tomorrow, and from a stranger to myself yesterday). Private determination of action is thus heavily influenced by human need for continuity.

 

The issue comes when an external force seeks to disturb this illusory self-established equilibrium. For example, an inherent physical and psychological attraction or (as I rather see it: a becoming accustomed to the presence of another) will seek to destroy an equilibrium whereby the individual in question perceives himself to be an unlovable. Reinforced by years of continuity, the person will try to compensate for the misbalance, perhaps by reinforcing his strength in resolution over his own disposition (thus acting to betray), to take comfort in self-knowledge and certainty. This does not mean such a person is unable to love, in fact, this inner conflict is very evidence of such strong feelings itself.

 

Most people do things which they regret silently later. It may be extremely difficult (nigh impossible) to establish a stable relationship with the people described, but that does not mean they have no emotional attachment or are unable to appreciate it when they receive it. It probably means they do not know how they should respond, or feel subjectively that they 'ought' to reject it, even when they want nothing less.

 

(The last sentence seems paradoxical, after all: if I want one thing, I do not choose another, hooray for revealed preference - but its partly a matter of the balance of wants, and the fact that one want is of a dutiful nature, the other of an emotional nature, which I can, arguably, be seperated, with the latter alone consisting of the definition of 'love' for the sake of this argument)

 

 

Interesting... Not to be rude or anything , but this reads more like a psychological essay paper than a post. To tell the truth I understood some of it but not all. It was somewhat hard to understand. I agree his character is something to be looked at as a psychological "study'' for lack of a better word. He seems like he has layers and layers of mystery and even more under that, mixmatched from falseness to truths and maybe some in between all mixed up together. Geez, did that even make sense? heh. he doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve for sure and seems his response to everything is belligerence, then shows some kindness and when you start to think he has a good side buried within he switches the tables again rather abruptly I might add. Casavir is not nearly that complex, not at all which some find not quite to their liking. To me Bishop shows and actually relishes his dark nature and tries to stuff emotions, kindness, etc. deep down inside of him to the point of self-hate and if one cannot love themselves how can one love others outside themselves? he is most likely confused and I am trying to explain this best I can. Not saying he doesn't love or is incapable of he just tries to shove it from him and pretend it doesn;t exist. Therefore creating inner conflict of some of the deepest sort. One may be able to deny their feelings and/or repress/cover them, maybe weaken them but one can never be rid of them fully, and I don't think this is something Bishop understands about human nature. He considers (or at least tries to convince himself ) that emotions are weakness. IMO, without emotions people are nothing more than shells and robots.

[Matilda]

Mea culpa to Guest_fax if I touched a nerve spurring that elaborate response on the deconstruction of human behavior

 

But seriously, the bottom line is that Bishop ultimately betrays the KC -- no matter what she does. At best, in the original storyline, Bishop walks away from Garius and the KC. His motivation(s) for his behavior -- at least on the surface -- are self interest and his love of individual freedom (so, maybe he does love the KC after all but is unable to put her above his own needs/interests...can that be love?). The closest Bishop will come to love is with the KC, but his incapacity, unwillingness (whatever adjective you want to put here) to put her interests ahead of his own is not love. At least not in my book. Of course, he could love the KC but there are hidden or unconscious influences hindering the admission of it such as self-destructive behavior or self-fulfilling prophecy... e.g., "Damn, she's going to leave me just like everyone else has so I may as well leave (and betray) her now"

 

I'd love to hear from others such as Domi and Avalonofthemists explore the issue if the KC should/should not give up on Bishop and if he does/can love her.

 

On a side note, I will not concede that Bishop is a more complex character than Cas, despite his penchant to brood But, that in itself, is another issue worthy of discussion.

[DeathAngel]

"Damn, she's going to leave me just like everyone else has so I may as well leave (and betray) her now"

 

You make a good point there and i think it rightly explains why he betrays the KC. But at the same time I think that he does love her and that's why he leaves because I don't think there is anything worse than being hurt by one you love.

 

Also this may be just me but I've always thought he was a good person deep down it's just no one's ever been nice to him so he treats everyone like they're out to get him. Which sort of brings me back to the beginning of my statement.

 

He considers (or at least tries to convince himself ) that emotions are weakness. IMO, without emotions people are nothing more than shells and robots.

 

True he does seem to do that. That may be why I seem to relate to him for I tend to do that as well. I am known to say "emotions are complicated and I sometimes wish I didn't have them" I always shake my head afterwords for i know that's rather stupid and ridiculous and would never work but still.

 

Also I agree with guest_fax that it seems to ring true to his character this is the way I've always perceived him.

[Domi]

I'd love to hear from others such as Domi and Avalonofthemists explore the issue if the KC should/should not give up on Bishop and if he does/can love her.

 

It depends on the character I am playing. Nowadays, I don't have the luxury to replay a game numerous times as in BG times, and I generally just go with a sharp, hard character type, far from pristine novice. She is neither honorable nor good, nor naive. I go with a character who revels in being stuck in the middle of it all, and who is not seeking the right way, just some sort of a way. This type would accept Bishop's betrayal in stride, cope with it, and drag him off the Wall when the time comes. They have the capacity to handle that kind of stuff, live through it and get their way eventually. If anyone around here read Joe Abercrombie's excellent books, Monza from the Best Served Cold is exceptionally close to the Mary-Sue I'd use for Bishop romance and NWN2 story OC to MotB. I don't say that other types wouldn't fit well, but I like this one the best. I used up my sweet and honorable girls on Kivan and Jaemal. Casavir just didn't call enough to me to produce a Light of Heavens (before writing the romance my character just rejected him at the CRK), and now I am out of leasure time -and yes, it is very much unfortunate. If I played the Light of Heavens type, she would chose Casavir, and attempt to put Bishop down on the Wall.

 

But I am kindda looking forward to playing Neeshka's romance with a sweeter, younger, more playful male character. My last male was a smart ass whose goal in life was to survive Peony's loving, so I'd like to make a more sincere suitor for Neeshka.