Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Icendoan]

In regards to 'setting' APR, I think param2 covers it.

 

#1 (0x001) Stat: Attacks Per Round Modifier [1]

Parameter #1: Key Modifier

Parameter #2: Type

Description:

Alters a characters Attacks per Round, by changing the Key by the modifier value specified by the 'Key Value' field, in the style specified by 'Type' field.

 

Key Attacks Per Round

0 0

1 1

2 2

3 3

4 4

5 5

6 0.5

7 1.5

8 2.5

9 3.5

10 4.5

 

Known values for 'Type' are:

0 Cumulative Modifier -> Key = Key + 'Key Modifier' value

1 Flat Value Modifier -> Key = 'Key Modifier' value

2 Percentage Modifier -> Key = (Key * 'Key Modifier' value) / 100

3 Cumulative Modifier -> Same as 0

 

NB. When this opcode is stacked, the values of the Key Modifier are stacked, not the number of attacks.

 

So, param1 = 2, param2 =1 should set it to 2 APR.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

Level 0 spells

Well, as there are a lot of talk about Kits etc. Has anyone made a Cantrip&Orisons mod for BG2, a mod that adds lesser level (0) spells to casters like this one does for IwD?

Well, I'm not particularly interested on this matter, and here we're only discussing fighter classes. Anyway, sooner or later we'll discuss spellcasting classes too.

 

Barbarian vs. Berserker

Let's compare this two classes more accurately:

 

- I'd say Berserker's Grandmastery is more or less comparable with Barbarian's superior resistances. Taking into account the revised table we're going to use within KR, and the fact Barbarian is limite to specialization Berserkers have +2 to hit, +3 to damage, and a full attack per round more than Barbarians. On the other hand Barbarians have up to 20% physical resistance and use d12 instead of d10 (for me it usually means 18 hit points more).

 

- Barbarians can't wear heavy armors, but with Item Revisions this is a less noticeable hindrance, and even less if we take into account barbarian's superior movement rate. Still, probably a small advantage on the Berserker side.

 

- Barbarian immunity to backstab is potentially great, but surely limited within BG (with aVENGER's RR installed is cool to have imo). I'd say it is more than enough though to compensate for the small disadvantage we've registered for the armor limitation.

 

- Berserker cannot use missile weapon. I'm sure most of you don't consider this a big hindrance, and it isn't imo, but it's there, and ranged abilities may come handy sometime.

 

- Barbarian cannot dual-class, but I don't see it as a disadvantage per se, as I'm currently comparing Berserker and Barbarian as single classes, and this limitation simply avoid powerful combinations which instead are still open for Berserkers.

 

I'd say that with the revised proficiency table, which slightly nerfs the Barbarian, and revising the respective rages to be almost equally powerful (in vanilla Barbarian Rage was quite better imo) these two classes are quite balanced with each other. I think the Barbarian is still a little more appealing as a single class, but it's probably a matter of tastes.

 

If we all agree on this comparison it means we have to make the two rages as balanced as possible with each other.

 

 

P.S Icen, I do know the opcode to set apr, I'm just saying that external subsequent effects like haste, Belm in the off-hand, and so on would stack, effectively ruining the desired effect. Not to mention I'd like to keep things as similar as possible to PnP.

[yarpen]

I agree, what do you think of my suggestion of having True Fighter become proficient in any weapon at 9th level and specialized in any weapon at 18th?

Remember that proficiency can be set, not raised/lowered. Then when I put 5 stars in my lovely sling, at 9th level pow - there are only proficiencies. ;-) I'd rather prefer faster rate of earning new points (as a simulation of faster feats in 3rd edition).

[Demivrgvs]

I agree, what do you think of my suggestion of having True Fighter become proficient in any weapon at 9th level and specialized in any weapon at 18th?

Remember that proficiency can be set, not raised/lowered. Then when I put 5 stars in my lovely sling, at 9th level pow - there are only proficiencies. ;-) I'd rather prefer faster rate of earning new points (as a simulation of faster feats in 3rd edition).

Actually it's not how it works, if you have 5 stars in sling you'll keep 5 stars. Proficiencies can only be set yes, but fortunately the set command won't lower a higher value.

[yarpen]

O'rly? xD Cool!

[Demivrgvs]

Fighter

I agree, what do you think of my suggestion of having True Fighter become proficient in any weapon at 9th level and specialized in any weapon at 18th?

Remember that proficiency can be set, not raised/lowered. Then when I put 5 stars in my lovely sling, at 9th level pow - there are only proficiencies. ;-) I'd rather prefer faster rate of earning new points (as a simulation of faster feats in 3rd edition).

Actually it's not how it works, if you have 5 stars in sling you'll keep 5 stars. Proficiencies can only be set yes, but fortunately the set command won't lower a higher value.

O'rly? xD Cool!

Yeah, and it also works better than faster earning rate imo, because the latter would allow fighters to select where to put their points, ending up with 3-4 weapons at grandmastery level with ease, while my solution would simply allow mid-high level fighters to be quite competent with any weapon, without making too easy for them to master a lot of weapons.

 

 

Barbarian Rage vs. Berserker's Enrage

If we agree on what has been said in the previous posts, here's a proposed solution for the two rages.

 

Barbarian Rage (aka Whirling Frenzy): barbarians rely on their perfectly built body to fight as swift and agile beasts (+2 movement rate). Their quick movements allow them to more easily dodge attacks (+2 AC), or AoE spells (+2 save vs breath), and to hit more often (+1 apr) though with less accuracy (-2 thac0).

 

Berserker's Enrage: berserkers rely on superhuman strength (+4 damage) and resistance to both physical (+20 hp) and magical attacks (+2 save vs spells). They are reckless warriors and don't care to get hit (-2 AC) as long as that allows them to more easily score a hit on their victims (+2 thac0).

 

If you want to more easily compare the two rages:

* +1 attack per round -- +2 to hit, +4 to damage

* -2 to hit penalty -- -2 AC penalty

* +2 AC bonus, +2 movement rate -- +20 hit points

* +2 saves vs. breath -- +2 saves vs. spell

* immune to mind affecting spells (both rages)

 

To make these two abilities more balanced for BG1 we may simply halve the bonuses till for example 9th level, and at 18th level we may allow both characters to become immune to the fatigue effect which follows both rages.

 

Let me know your opinions.

[yarpen]

Yeah, and it also works better than faster earning rate imo, because the latter would allow fighters to select where to put their points, ending up with 3-4 weapons at grandmastery level with ease, while my solution would simply allow mid-high level fighters to be quite competent with any weapon, without making too easy for them to master a lot of weapons.

Still I think that fighter should have a possibility of choosing: specialisation in many, many weapons or focus on few ones. There's a need of good Fighter's advantage.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Yeah, and it also works better than faster earning rate imo, because the latter would allow fighters to select where to put their points, ending up with 3-4 weapons at grandmastery level with ease, while my solution would simply allow mid-high level fighters to be quite competent with any weapon, without making too easy for them to master a lot of weapons.

Still I think that fighter should have a possibility of choosing: specialisation in many, many weapons or focus on few ones. There's a need of good Fighter's advantage.

So you would wih there to be an LLA, Low Level Ability... ... I do not know if it could be done, but I could see it be done by first giving the fighter a HLA to choose on level 9... this ability would be lesser one than that of a real HLA, as the others would have level 15 as requirements...

1 to be 1 to all normal proficiencies, the other could be 1 extra proficiency, and yet one could be to set a proficiency to a 2.

[Demivrgvs]

No comment on Barbarian and Berserker classes? If not I'll proceed.

 

Yeah, and it also works better than faster earning rate imo, because the latter would allow fighters to select where to put their points, ending up with 3-4 weapons at grandmastery level with ease, while my solution would simply allow mid-high level fighters to be quite competent with any weapon, without making too easy for them to master a lot of weapons.

Still I think that fighter should have a possibility of choosing: specialisation in many, many weapons or focus on few ones. There's a need of good Fighter's advantage.

So you would wih there to be an LLA, Low Level Ability... ... I do not know if it could be done, but I could see it be done by first giving the fighter a HLA to choose on level 9... this ability would be lesser one than that of a real HLA, as the others would have level 15 as requirements...

1 to be 1 to all normal proficiencies, the other could be 1 extra proficiency, and yet one could be to set a proficiency to a 2.

Actually to increase the rate at which fighters get proficiency points you can simply alter a single .2da file...and my suggested solution instead simply require to apply a permanent effect on the character.

 

I do agree that fighters deserve unique features, I'm just not sure allowing them tons of free to distribute proficiencies is the solution I'm looking for.

[Icendoan]

You also can't get a HLA with less than 3M exp!

 

Icen

[Jarno Mikkola]

Actually to increase the rate at which fighters get proficiency points you can simply alter a single .2da file...and my suggested solution instead simply require to apply a permanent effect on the character.

 

I do agree that fighters deserve unique features, I'm just not sure allowing them tons of free to distribute proficiencies is the solution I'm looking for.

Well, is that the best solution? As you would also alther the rate of all the Kitted Fighters, unless you wish to rewrite the whole procedure for them, and then you'll still get stuck on the Kits mods installed after this mod.

As in mine, the players pure Fighter classed character would needs to choose which kind of proficiency he wants(from the 3 different kinds), and then be stuck to it.

 

You also can't get a HLA with less than 3M exp!

That can be adjusted. At least so I assume, as they did so in IA. -for dual classed chars-

[Salk]

To make these two abilities more balanced for BG1 we may simply halve the bonuses till for example 9th level, and at 18th level we may allow both characters to become immune to the fatigue effect which follows both rages.

 

Let me know your opinions.

 

I actually don't like this suggestion.

 

The fatigue following the enrage seems to me a rather sensible nerf that shouldn't be removed.

 

For the rest, all OK!

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian and Berserker

I've updated the first post (I'm opent to suggestion even for the description itself ), Barbarian and Berserker classes should be ready quite soon, even within the day. That doesn't mean we can't further refine them if necessary.

 

To make these two abilities more balanced for BG1 we may simply halve the bonuses till for example 9th level, and at 18th level we may allow both characters to become immune to the fatigue effect which follows both rages.

I actually don't like this suggestion.

 

The fatigue following the enrage seems to me a rather sensible nerf that shouldn't be removed.

 

For the rest, all OK!

Your concern is mine as well, as I said I do like to have the fatigue effect. At the same time though we still have it until very high levels, whereas vanilla's Barbarian didn't have it at all, and I do think this feature would be a huge incentive to single class Berserkers over the previously much more appealing dual class solutions (e.g Berserker/Cleric and Berserker/Thief).

 

True Fighter

Actually to increase the rate at which fighters get proficiency points you can simply alter a single .2da file...and my suggested solution instead simply require to apply a permanent effect on the character.

 

I do agree that fighters deserve unique features, I'm just not sure allowing them tons of free to distribute proficiencies is the solution I'm looking for.

Well, is that the best solution? As you would also alther the rate of all the Kitted Fighters, unless you wish to rewrite the whole procedure for them, and then you'll still get stuck on the Kits mods installed after this mod.

As in mine, the players pure Fighter classed character would needs to choose which kind of proficiency he wants(from the 3 different kinds), and then be stuck to it.

These problems are another reason to prefer my first suggestion to have True Fighter gains proficiency in any weapon at 9th level and specialization at 18th, leaving the rate at which they get proficiency points unaltered. Then, to further improve the appeal of the pure class we may add other things like fighting stances imo.

 

Kensai

I would like to know you opinion at least on a few matters:

- melee bonus progression, do you prefer the old one (+1/3 lvl) or my proposed one (1 + 1/4lvl)?

- AC bonus, do you prefer the old one (fixed +2) or my proposed one (1 + 1/10lvl)?

- dual class, in theory I'm strongly against it as allowing this kit to dual is very anti-roleplaying. What do you think?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Barbarian Rage vs. Berserker's Enrage

Will they be able to use a shield durring their rage? Cause I don't see anyone going to berserk and then putting their shield to neatly buckle the 100 arrows that are coming at them.

 

Kensai

I would like to know you opinion at least on a few matters:

- melee bonus progression, do you prefer the old one (+1/3 lvl) or my proposed one (1 + 1/4lvl)?

- AC bonus, do you prefer the old one (fixed +2) or my proposed one (1 + 1/10lvl)?

- dual class, in theory I'm strongly against it as allowing this kit to dual is very anti-roleplaying. What do you think?

- I am against the Dual restriction.

- I would make the AC bonus higher a bit... 1+1/6lvl

- +1/4lvl or even +1/5lvl to hit and +1/3lvl to damage is would be fine. And what I prefer and what's good is a different thing.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

With the help of Mike I've completely re-written barbarian class description. The end result seems cool to me, but if you have any suggestion let me know. One thing is certain, it's extremely longer than vanilla's one!! If you don't like it to be so long let me know even such a thing.

 

"From the frozen lands of The North and the hellish jungles of Chult in the south come brave, even reckless, warriors. Civilized people call them barbarians or berserkers and suspect them of mayhem, impiety, and atrocities. While undoubtedly feral and unpredictable by the nature of their rages, barbarians are not necessarily uncultured brutes and have time and time again proven their cunning and resourcefulness as well as sheer physical power and endurance. Sometimes, in spite of their aversion to order, barbarians even demonstrate honor.

 

Where the fighter has training and discipline, the barbarian has a powerful rage, and once in this whirling frenzy, he becomes a true maelstrom of devastation, better able to defeat his foes and withstand their attacks. These rages leave him winded, and he only has the energy for a few such spectacular displays per day, but those few rages are usually sufficient.

 

Barbarians are common within several organizations within Faerun, such as the Uthgardt warriors of the Silver Marches and Icewind Dale, the primal warriors of the Reghed Glacier, the wild tribes of the Chondalwood, and the famous berserkers of Rashemen and its neighboring regions. Contrary to common belief, not all warriors who live outside civilization's borders are barbarians. Only those who embrace the wild and primal ways of the rage can rightly call themselves barbarian, imbuing them with a wild spirit not found amongst other warriors."

 

 

Barbarian Rage vs. Berserker's Enrage

Will they be able to use a shield durring their rage? Cause I don't see anyone going to berserk and then putting their shield to neatly buckle the 100 arrows that are coming at them.

Not implementable.

 

Kensai

I would like to know you opinion at least on a few matters:

- melee bonus progression, do you prefer the old one (+1/3 lvl) or my proposed one (1 + 1/4lvl)?

- AC bonus, do you prefer the old one (fixed +2) or my proposed one (1 + 1/10lvl)?

- dual class, in theory I'm strongly against it as allowing this kit to dual is very anti-roleplaying. What do you think?

- I am against the Dual restriction.

- I would make the AC bonus higher a bit... 1+1/6lvl

- +1/4lvl or even +1/5lvl to hit and +1/3lvl to damage is would be fine. And what I prefer and what's good is a different thing.

I suppose many players would be against the "no dual class" revision, thus I'll try to make the single class kensai more appealing by himself. One thing I'm currently pondering is the possibility to use custom HLAs tables to create a sort of Revised Refinements, as Mike insists saying "it's super easy".

 

Regarding the progression of kensai hit/damage/ac bonuses I do have to think a lot about it, as we have to make it balanced for BG1 too, but I may agree with you that my current solution would have too little AC and slightly too much hit/damage.