BG1/BGEE Items

[Grammarsalad]

I'm cool with an optional component to remove ee items. I probably won't install it, but it wouldn't bother me if it's there (I'd rather they were improved )

[Istfemer]

"Movement restrictions in heavy armor"

I used it in my last (quite brief) playthrough. {IR V3 Beta 1.16 + SR v3.1 (Hotfix 03) + KR Beta 18 + buggy SCS v24 + aTweaks v4.10 + a few other mods}

Movement was super-slow in full plate. Irenicus Dungeon proved to be a tough challenge, IIRC primarily thanks to Duergar homing en masse on my stealthied thieves. (one of SCS bugs or intended?)
I never used this component before but this time I decided to give it a try. To my surprise, I found it less annoying than I had expected it to be.

And this was way back before Demi reduced the penalties. (maybe I wasn't hit by slow and teleport field much in my playthrough?)

Right, I'm not addressing your argument...

My final comment: how can anyone have issues with a (hypothetical) optional component?

I wager a majority of IR players don't use the component "Movement restrictions in heavy armor". I sure don't. Does that mean that Demi is a bad bad person and we hate everyone who install that component?

A sufficiently impulsive Don Quixote can have some issues.
If he sees the peaceful windmills of Sweden as hulking giants - what does this mean? Are windmills an illusion? Are windmills overpowered?

Eh. It's morning already and I'm speaking in riddles.

Don't mind me here.

[Dakk]

You're fun :D

[Jarno Mikkola]

My final comment: how can anyone have issues with a (hypothetical) optional component?

Like I said, it's the attitude ... and yes, you answered the above question, you obviously ran out of ideas, and that's the other thing, you are too lazy to thing better ideas on how to add in the 9immertion, so you just deside to remove it completely by removing the "rewards" from places you don't like them to be, perhaps or whatever.

The "Movement restriction ..."component is a good one, as it's an option IN thieving in the heavy armor -components, it's not a separate part of ... "I am too lazy to make ideas and discuss and come up with something fitting", like my stunner idea. "... so let's just make our own reality and restrict the users. And let's see how we can cash in on this with micro actio..., darn it, we should have added those darn -anyways. Hey."

 

 

... If he sees the peaceful windmills of Sweden as hulking giants - what does this mean? Are windmills an illusion? Are windmills overpowered?

Well, the windmill is part of the background, it was build for a purpose and trying to tear it down even as a monster only costs us if we try to deny it's existence, as something else. This is part of that talk, yes, as there the windmill is the additional non kit ability that the Sarevok has, now the monster is the fact that he has a kit that doesn't exist in PnP, while ... Sarevok had a kit already, the normal fighter kit yeah, but he also has the ability, there might not be a PnP kit like it, but putting those classes on makes the windmill look like a dragon. But again, the game is not a PnP game, but a video game that has different rule base than the PnP one. Yes it has turns, but those turns are just mostly conceptual as the primary time measure is the tic that the AI takes to run one full pass, that's two frames and the game is normally played at 30 frames per second. Unless you edit the baldur.ini or set it differently in the BGConfig.exe .

Yes, I have a modern mind, and you can't mislead me from the facts.

[Scourge]

No Jarno, it's not that. It's just that BG, especially the second, drowns you in magical items. In the normal vanilla game you use always the same stuff but in IR you have actually a chance to choose. Maybe even too much choices

[Jarno Mikkola]

No Jarno, it's not that. It's just that BG, especially the second, ...

Erhm, what was the topic about, oh I see the topic title is about the BG1 ite...

And you loose most of the items in the BG1->SoA in the BGT transition anyways, unless you cheat, so you aren't actually drowning to a pool of magical items, besides the wonderful pool would be of blood and guts and wonderful blades of different sorts mixes to a hole in the ground, just like my original summoning .. ouh, never mind. So, that's not a valid excuse.

 

In the normal vanilla game you use always the same stuff but in IR you have actually a chance to choose. Maybe even too much choices

Sorry, but there is never too many choices, ever. It's just the too small mind talking.

And a comment to the first part; yeah, or you could actually try to play differently for once. NOT just overpower everything. If you never die in a d20 game, it's not that you are good at it, it's that you are basically cheating because you do not give the random element a chance to actually matter at all.

[Scourge]

thansk for telling me that if I'm not giving any chance to the enemy to actually butcher me it means that I'm cheating

ahaha

first time I read that

[Grammarsalad]

"Sorry, but there is never too many choices, ever..."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/27/your-money/27shortcuts.html?_r=0

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

"Sorry, but there is never too many choices, ever..."

-linked article-

Well, I can say that the thing there is, there's a choice, and when ever there's one, you can always choose to use other people to make the choice for you... but I don't want you to make the choice for me. K, got it ? And the fact that this sort of line of thinking, "we can skip this item", "and that item", fast goes to "let's op to skip this and that and those" and soon you'll have the +20 hackmaster and nothing else where the game has to be played with the 6 party members you choose, the barbarian, necromancer, riskbreaker ... need I go further ?

 

But why would you want to use Stupefier on peasants? Against peasants fists are enough of a force, no?

 

Unless your intent is to roleplay some weakling with a penchant for peasant-whacking ofc.

Hmm, have you ever tried to not to kill Elminster ? He only has a 100 hit points, and I am quite sure the try to not kill him might fail with just fists.

Yep, he too is a peasant of sorts...

[Grammarsalad]

Okay, I'll try not to take your choices away jarno...

[Scourge]

meh

[Demivrgvs]

@Jarno, please stop spamming the topic with nonsense. No offense, but you are making a huge thing out of nothing.

...this sort of line of thinking, "we can skip this item", "and that item", fast goes to "let's op to skip this and that and those" and soon you'll have the +20 hackmaster and nothing else where the game has to be played with the 6 party members you choose, the barbarian, necromancer, riskbreaker ... need I go further ?

Yeah, because removing choices and making players always rely on the same few hackmaster stuff is exactly what Revisions mods do.

IF removing BGEE items will become a thing it will be a separate optional component. Thus nobody will take anything away from you without asking.

Also, within this topic I said I will try and save some of BGEE items when possible but even if you think "we just lack imagination" the main problem is that most of EE items don't even have their own bams and that's something I cannot fix. On top of that add the lack of lore (really a 3 years old kid would have written better backgrounds), the redundancy of some of those items (Golden Axe and Harrow are terrible copy/paste of Bala's Axe and Flame Tongue) and very very poor design decisions in general. Despite your claims it's hard to make every item unique when you have 500+ magical items to handle and limited opcodes.

[Jarno Mikkola]

IF removing BGEE items will become a thing it will be a separate optional component. Thus nobody will take anything away from you without asking.

But the whole point is that if you op out a few items in a component, you are not going to edit them, and thus not making the Stunner a stunner with stun damage instead of the OP effect... as you just leave it out of the game, when you install the optional component while others might not.

 

Despite your claims it's hard to make every item unique when you have 500+ magical items to handle and limited opcodes.

Well, there's an in world explanation why the items don't all have to be exact unique. It's that the enchanters don't all use just their own skill to enhance items, but what others have done before. Case and point, the +1 items are not all unique^TM.

So viewing the matter that everything has to be unique is quite much the opposite I was going for, actually.

Now, if there's a mechanism you do not like(the stunners OP stun effect, yeah this is getting dull already I know), then you should remove it, and make the use of the other effects to give the same like effect( without it being OP). And I believe you have done this to a good and satisfying level with most of the items. Despite my interference.

 

really a 3 years old kid would have written better backgrounds

You have a very strange concept of the mind of a 3 year old... that they can write and so forth.

[Dakk]

IF removing BGEE items will become a thing it will be a separate optional component. Thus nobody will take anything away from you without asking.

But the whole point is that if you op out a few items in a component, you are not going to edit them, and thus not making the Stunner a stunner with stun damage instead of the OP effect... as you just leave it out of the game, when you install the optional component while others might not.

As I said in like my very first post on this issue, the point is that we have to assume there are limits to the time that dear Demi have at his disposal for modding (unless someone wants to, you know, pay him;)). If that hypothesis is true, there are hence constraints to what can realistically get done in SR, IR and KR. If we recognize those constraints as true, there will be things that will either never get done, or have to wait for a distant future version.

 

So. Given the above, I argue that modding the EE-items is nice but not critical. I furthermore argued that if other modding takes priority (say for example, getting more kits done in KR) the next best thing would be a component to deprecate said items.

 

See: [my underlining]

My personal preference would also be to remove them rather than "fixing" them. Or more specifically; I don't think it's worth the effort including them in IR (I'm mainly considering the limited modding time of Demi here).

 

Now can we please just move this thread along from this inane bickering?

 

TL;DR: Fix what can be fixed, deprecate the rest.

[Jarno Mikkola]

So. Given the above, I argue that modding the EE-items is nice but not critical. I furthermore argued that if other modding takes priority

..

TL;DR: Fix what can be fixed, deprecate the rest.

Sadly you might not understand that removing items from the game actually take's it's own moding too; Going through the items, deciding what items to remove, finding them, writing the scripts or the removal code, and making the optional code part and then testing that it actually works in game... instead of, ah never mind those items, we'll tweak them later, in IR v51, now we can kick the Imp back to the place he came from. Ha.