The Sensuous Permission-Free Crossmod Banter Author

[Kulyok]

Don't you have a whole site for yourself where you can save stuff like this? We were actually having a useful discussion about good ways to manage multi-author projects before you arrived.

 

Note how quickly and stealthily it became "multi-author projects" from "Crossmod Pack, part I+1". I am envious.

 

I see two ways:

1) All, most, or some authors require their explicit permission before modifying all or some of their work. Examples: BG1 NPC, RE.

2) Authors submit their stuff to the project, and jcompton edits everything(which is not to say he actually _edits_ everything, but he _can_). Examples: Flirt Pack, Banter Pack.

 

Advantages of 1): lots and lots of content. Relative creative freedom.

Disadvantages of 1): constant squabbles.

 

Advantages of 2): quality.

If we are talking of jcompton; I'm not sure if it'll be the same with another editor.

Disadvantages of 2): lack of content(hence RE and IEP).

Either because the authors do not want to submit to every Evil Overlord around, or because the editor is picky; true reason unknown.

[CamDawg]

Note how quickly and stealthily it became "multi-author projects" from "Crossmod Pack, part I+1". I am envious.

I think we shouldn't limit ourselves to Xbanter; what everyone is discussing here is applicable to pretty much any collaborative project. Don't think it only applies to writing, either--you can make the case that I'm the 'uber-editor' of BG2 Fixpack, accepting and incorporating submissions from many authors.

 

As I mention above, I favor JC's approach (for the most part) because it has much stronger safeguards against random acts of dickery and out of control egos. I'm not convinced that it necessarily leads to better quality--that strongly depends on who's involved, and in what roles--but I do know that one person hijacking an entire process to stroke their own ego has happened before and will happen again.

[Kulyok]

Don't think it only applies to writing, either--you can make the case that I'm the 'uber-editor' of BG2 Fixpack, accepting and incorporating submissions from many authors.

 

I'm not a programmer(despite what my diploma says), and I think the difference between multiple coders and multiple writers warrants a separate discussion, so I'd rather stick to writing in this thread. I agree that both problems are interesting; it's just I'm not sure we'll keep up with either if we discuss them both here.

[jastey]

one person hijacking an entire process to stroke their own ego has happened before and will happen again.

But how to prevent that editor is the one involved in this. That is the weak point of that concept, imho. And I already hear "no, I am not contributing cross-mod banters as long as he / she is the editor of that". Where would this lead to, and would it be really better than the current concept (I am only talking about CMB)?

[jcompton]

would it be really better than the current concept (I am only talking about CMB)?

Can you look me in the eye and tell me that you genuinely believe the material in CBP is as good and as extensive as it could be?

[CamDawg]

But how to prevent that editor is the one involved in this. That is the weak point of that concept, imho. And I already hear "no, I am not contributing cross-mod banters as long as he / she is the editor of that". Where would this lead to, and would it be really better than the current concept (I am only talking about CMB)?

Here's the thing, though--I don't think this is relevant unless you're going for 100% participation, and I don't think that's achievable under any scheme short of solo authorship. If modder A has an issue with modder B, it's fairly likely they have issues with modders C, D, and E as well. It's not a coincidence that the same people tend to be involved in the various dramas across the communities.

[jcompton]

Right. In the real world you'd almost assuredly end up with more than one of these, under different management--just as there is both Banter Pack and IEP, just as not every quest is in Quest Pack, etc.

 

I'm not saying the only advantage here is "having an editor." The real point is casting off all of the restrictions permission imposes. Once we collectively get over the "Mine! Mine! This character is MINE!" problem, you can even blissfully self-publish your own, if in fact you don't care for/don't trust any of the editors the other hypothetical crossmod projects operate under.

[the bigg]

Here's the thing, though--I don't think this is relevant unless you're going for 100% participation, and I don't think that's achievable under any scheme short of solo authorship. If modder A has an issue with modder B, it's fairly likely they have issues with modders C, D, and E as well. It's not a coincidence that the same people tend to be involved in the various dramas across the communities.

It isn't really a huge problem to find somebody acceptable by most modders. If we exclude the V/S/M gang (whose aim is to start their own platform, opposite to `ours') and a few more generally hostile people (such as myself), pretty much everybody gets on nicely with everybody nowadays. It's been ages since I saw any PPG vs. SHS flame, and mods have a joined Tutu/BGT download file, crikey!

[Kulyok]

Once we collectively get over the "Mine! Mine! This character is MINE!" problem

 

Which, as it's been pointed out two years ago, you'll never get over, as there are plenty of mod authors, and plenty more coming, and some retired and still choosing to have this control.

[jcompton]

Maybe some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a more sensible reality, then. Because I assert that the only "control" over "their" characters in this respect is that which other people allow them to have. It's not theirs to demand.

[the bigg]

Which, as it's been pointed out two years ago, you'll never get over, as there are plenty of mod authors, and plenty more coming, and some retired and still choosing to have this control.

Actually, it'd work more like this: JCompton (or whomever) starts SPFCBM. I submit a StH/Xan banter. You come, whine and are told to GTFO. No player loses, since you wouldn't have ever contributed to SPFCBM anyway.

 

Even legally, you have no right to forbid anyone to write a Xan banter (since copyright protects your banters, not your character, which are protected by trademark law, which requires you to pay $$s to buy protection).

 

EDIT: JC said this more nicely

[jcompton]

legally

 

This is probably as good a time as any to point out that we're all taking it as axiomatic that "yes, we appreciate that there are copyright laws in the world, and this game is subject to them, but we are all merrily skating along them with our mods and our fanfics and our dance remixes, (handwave handwave)." I do not come to bury intellectual property concepts entirely, only to advocate that we be more even-handed in how we honor them.

[the bigg]

This is probably as good a time as any to point out that we're all taking it as axiomatic that "yes, we appreciate that there are copyright laws in the world, and this game is subject to them, but we are all merrily skating along them with our mods and our fanfics and our dance remixes, (handwave handwave)." I do not come to bury intellectual property concepts entirely, only to advocate that we be more even-handed in how we honor them.

Yeah, but what I mean is that (if we were to ignore the fact that mods break the EULA, so we're on the same ground as a pusher sueing somebody for not paying his dose of crack), Kulyok could sue me and win for uploading Xan somewhere without asking her for permission, whereas she has no legal recourse if I were to write a Xan banter (unless she paid the $400 or so to trademark Xan). Of course, this wouldn't stop her from sending C&D letters, or using similar scare tactics ("you have the legal right, but are you really going to court and pay $500.000 in attorney fees?").

[CamDawg]

Yeah, but what I mean is that (if we were to ignore the fact that mods break the EULA, so we're on the same ground as a pusher sueing somebody for not paying his dose of crack), Kulyok could sue me and win for uploading Xan somewhere without asking her for permission, whereas she has no legal recourse if I were to write a Xan banter (unless she paid the $400 or so to trademark Xan). Of course, this wouldn't stop her from sending C&D letters, or using similar scare tactics ("you have the legal right, but are you really going to court and pay $500.000 in attorney fees?").

None of us are lawyers, so we're all free to continue to speculate wildly. So, it's my turn: I'm pretty sure that if your product has no valid copyright (as it more than likely violates Bio's IP and breaks the EULA, it doesn't) then C&D letters or lawsuits have no legal basis. And that's my opinion based on the draconian US laws, much less places with more sensible laws.

 

On the topic at hand, I've been chatting with Grim about trying to change the setup for submissions. Hopefully I can lure him into a public appearance.

[Grim Squeaker]

With a trail of edible goodies or something?