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Spell Revision - Shorty Saving Throws


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#1 Truschka

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:01 AM

Hello,

I can´t figure out why but Spell Revisions v4 beta 15 messes around with my shorty saving throws (con bonuses). I tried a fresh BG EE SOD Install with only mod merge and Spell Revisions main Component. This is what already messes up the bonus. 

Gnomes generated receive -2 saving throw bonus as described in the description box but no further constitution bonus is applied. Installing Atweaks and choosing to restore the constitution bonus won´t help.

 

It´s a minor issue of course but one nagging nontheless. Or is it maybe intended? I know the saving throws of all classes are mixed up and down by this mod.

 

greetings



#2 Bartimaeus

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 09:02 AM

SR "silently" (i.e. without documentation, last I checked) installs revised saves tables for all classes as well as Gnomes and Dwarves. I have implemented an .ini option to disable that in my own version of SR, but if you want to disable it yourself and prevent them from being installed, navigate to your spell_rev\components\main_component.tpa, go down to the bottom of the file to "REVISED SAVES", and delete the "COPY ~spell_rev_revised_saves[...]" lines, and then (re)install SR's main component.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 15 March 2018 - 09:05 AM.


#3 ALIENQuake

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 09:38 AM

It must be a reason to do it. Maybe changed bonuses are related to spell bonuses?



#4 Mike1072

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:52 AM

I recall there was an effort to make breath saves into reflex saves (like from later D&D editions) and maybe some similar changes.

#5 Truschka

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 05:59 AM

I don't question the reason behind it. I'm just curious how one enables the constitution bonus. Installing atweaks afterwards didn't work. And maybe modding the bonus manually onto an item is a possibility. I don't know how to though

#6 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 08:33 AM

I don't question the reason behind it. I'm just curious how one enables the constitution bonus. Installing atweaks afterwards didn't work. And maybe modding the bonus manually onto an item is a possibility. I don't know how to though

The game has a few .2da files(savecndh.2da for halflings, savecndg.2da gnomes) that the game uses to add all the special save throw. When you install the component, the mod just copies over the files with it's own. The Atweaks has it's own files. Now, they could all be same and you wouldn't even notice... or the difference is 1 or 2 at most so... that's out of 20 dye, so you won't mostly even feel it, ever.
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#7 Truschka

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 09:18 AM

 

I don't question the reason behind it. I'm just curious how one enables the constitution bonus. Installing atweaks afterwards didn't work. And maybe modding the bonus manually onto an item is a possibility. I don't know how to though

The game has a few .2da files(savecndh.2da for halflings, savecndg.2da gnomes) that the game uses to add all the special save throw. When you install the component, the mod just copies over the files with it's own. The Atweaks has it's own files. Now, they could all be same and you wouldn't even notice... or the difference is 1 or 2 at most so... that's out of 20 dye, so you won't mostly even feel it, ever.

 

In case of gnome 2 are substracted from Wand and Spell saving throws. With Spell Revisions installed I have found no way to make the constitution bonus count. Which at con 18 equals a saving throw bonus of 5. So quite the difference. Especially for BG1. 



#8 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 09:26 AM

In case of gnome 2 are substracted from Wand and Spell saving throws. With Spell Revisions installed I have found no way to make the constitution bonus count. Which at con 18 equals a saving throw bonus of 5. So quite the difference. Especially for BG1.

Well, the difference in this is that be your Constitution 3 or 20, you get a Bonus of +2 from being a Gnome. In the original, your got no bonus from being a Gnome if your Con was 3, while you got a bonus of +5 if your Con was 20. Difference being that the save throw comes from a different factor.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 20 March 2018 - 11:44 PM.

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#9 subtledoctor

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

My suggestion would be to simply have the Revised Saves be a separate, optional component of the mod. 


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#10 kreso

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 10:00 AM

Revised saves are a "core" component of the mod. Unless you want your agile thieves to have worst saves vs evocations like fireball, leave that as it is. Dwarves, halflings and gnomes were (are) wildly imbalanced in vanilla saving throw system (+5  from level 1?!); I suggested that those be nerfed myself and Demi implemented it years ago in Kit Revisions.

The shorty bonus is still there, but it is not nearly as crazy as vanilla. 

If you really want to have great saves, play pally or monk.



#11 InKal

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:07 PM

 shorty can't be a pally or monk.



#12 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:36 PM

shorty can't be a pally or monk.

Sure they can... look for "ToBEx's" class options. But the though was actually, that if you want good saves, you make a human Paladin or a Monk, rather than say a Gnome Fighter. As they get actual save throw bonuses to ALL saves. Although +2 to a d20 is not much better saves. When compared to say +50% hostile magic resistance that a drow might get.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 21 March 2018 - 12:06 AM.

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#13 InKal

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 01:49 AM

I know but I am not using Tobex. In EEs they still can't? 

 

And we are talking about specific racial bonuses, not class bonuses. 

 

I am strongly against this/these particular nerf in the sense that it should be optional at least.

 

Funny thing is that IIRC Sikret has made almost identical nerf in IA6 (only +1 to saves) but he did it openly not silently. ;]



#14 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 03:39 AM

...

Funny thing is that IIRC Sikret has made almost identical nerf in IA6 (only +1 to saves) but he did it openly not silently. ;]

Yeah, it wasn't like it was in the primary component as part of the spell changes ... ouh cheese, it was. Yes, it's not a secret that the Spell Rev does spell changes where the saves more reflect the 5ed D&D rules rather than the 2ed's... where thieves can dodge fireballs more easily, with higher saves vs breath. Yeah, it's no longer save vs. spell, but a save vs breath. If memory serves.

 

And we are talking about specific racial bonuses, not class bonuses.

Erhm you have to make up your mind now, either your char can be a Gnome Paladin ... or not. Naturaly in the low modified game, they can't, and thus NOT being able to be a Paladin as a Gnome, is a racial trade. So a punishment for being a Gnome. Yes, the race, class and kit are different sides of the same dice. Aka you can only get set number of "bonuses". 


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#15 InKal

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 04:35 AM

I am totally ok with how it is made in vanilla game. Lets look from a little different perspective and look at Mazzy. Mazzy is a paladin, eh? Halfling pally. :D

 

now, with all this tobex hacks implemented, you can make a halfling paladin yourself...but it is just pointless, compromises Mazzy as a character, doesn't make any sense, imho.

 

Not to mention, you can be a gnomish pally/iliusionist but you can't have a shorty's save bonus because +5 to save vs. spell is crazy?? ;PP  


Edited by InKal, 21 March 2018 - 04:36 AM.




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