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Question/Suggestion: post-Sarevok in EET


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#16 Kaliesto

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 03:52 AM

But what a minute didn't TOTSC was more like a separate story rather than a continuation of BG1, I thought it was more of a side-story than anything else. If I'm not mistaken TOTSC actually takes place around the same time as the story of BG1. I don't think there was a time paradox there, so there shouldn't be a reason to treat TOTSC to make it take place after Sarevok.

 

Gotta remember that BG1 was more open in terms of the original PnP style as compared to SoD and BG2 which was more linear in the storyline, if there must be some kind of flow then it would be better to have the TOTSC areas unlocked during the final chapter.

 

If you all want to brainstorm ideas to why the party will need to head off to Ulgoth's Beard instead of facing Sarevok then I think all the areas could have a linked quest that could have something to do with a hidden follower of Sarevok or existing followers of Sarevok that try to find artifacts of Bhaal. Given this will create a new mod in of itself, but I think this is the more proper route to take than taking a rather strange route within SoD's very tight linearity.

 

Course this is treading on changing the TOTSC story a tad, but if paralleled properly with the original intent of the story I think it could be done. The only downside to my idea is you would have to sacrifice the Drizzt Saga Mod if you care about the story flow to stop Sarevok as it does have a delayed option to start after Durlag's Tower so you would have to use the original location of when Drizzt Saga starts.


Edited by Kaliesto, 18 April 2018 - 04:31 AM.


#17 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 05:37 AM

The point is to enable the player to do the TotSC content before or after fighting Sarevok. Neither one is "correct..." both could make sense. BGT let you play it either way, but EET forces you to do it either before fighting Sarevok, or in the middle of SoD.

The point of this is to enable playing that content between the Sarevok fight and the transition to SoD... if you want to.

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#18 AstroBryGuy

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:19 AM

 

 

I figure something like:
- Stay in control of the party after the Sarevok fight, just like in BGT.
- Go back outside and maybe do the TotSC content, if you feel like it.
- At some point talk to the Duke(s), just like BGT. You can be told "we've discovered there are three of Sarevok's minions still running around trying to cause trouble: Joe, Bob, and Korlasz. We know the location of Joe's hideout and Bob's hideout."
- After clearing those two hideouts, you find a letter/journal/map pointing you to Korlasz' hideout. You go to the entrance, start to descend a rope ladder... and boom, you're in SoD.

A mod like that would be pretty small, but a) it would be faithful to the existing transition; and b) it would give you a perfect excuse/opportunity to go at your own pace, maybe take a trip to Werewolf Island or Ice Island first, etc.

I had made this mod.

I developed it because my original Sandrah mod had content in the frame between Sarevok's death and talking to Belt in the BGT version. So you could leave the Sarevok temple again, go back into BG1 and play my stuff but of course also all the other things like TotSC and then report back to the Dukes and they would send you after Korlasz. On your second journey to Undercity there were some new opponents and a new entry among the ruins in the south that led to Korlasz tomb.

Again, I decided to trash that mod and put my interim content into SoD instead. The reason was mainly compatibility. All other mods and NPCs would follow the original sequence and the diversion felt a bit like hijacking the game.

(Did you play that version? Your description is pretty exact, only that Bob was Talos in my case, and Joe was Tamoko.)

 


You made content that was part of a huge mod that spans the entire game... naturally that would have compatibility issues with other mods.

The solution to me seems to be to just divorce it from a major campaign like the Sandrah mod. You can add the Talos and Tamoko hideouts, someone else could add hideouts for Bob and Joe, or a temple of Cyric, whatever. As long as they both occupy the same section, a player could use either one and still carry on into SoD and play the rest of the Sandrah mod.
 

Since the transition from BG1 to SoD is NOT a chapter increment (Chapter 7 of the game is from leaving Candlekeep Catacombs until you finish Korlasz Tomb).

Therefore most mods (and mods adding to vanilla NPC) use a Global that was already used in the classic games and in BGT Global("EndOfBG1,""Global",X).
X can be 0 (BG1) 1 (SoD or) 2 (BG2)
Events that advance it are Sarevok's Death 0>1 and Entering Irenicus Dungeon 1>2.
 
Thus, defeating Sarevok but returning again to the *BG1 world* prior to Chapter 8, is a state that would require additional checks in many scripts and dialogues. You will otherwise have NPCs and triggers referring to events and conditions that not yet happened.


Can't you simply rmeove the script action incrementing the "EndOfBG1" global from the end of the Sarevok fight, and add it to the conversation with the Dukes or whatever trigger you want to enable the entry to Korlasz' tomb?  So you defeat Sarevok, leave the undercity, and you are still considered to be within BG1.  Now you can go to Durlag's Tower, and Werewolf Island, maybe Bone Hill or whatever.

 

At its most basic, that's all you have to do: eliminate that script action, and add a conversation somewhere that triggers that script action and shoots you to Korlasz' tomb.  Just give the player a tiny bit more agency to decide when they want that transition to happen.

 

THEN, separately, modders could come in a fill this new section of the game with more stuff, if they want to.  Add the Talos/Tamoko hideouts.  Add events or conversations that foreshadow the conflict stirred up by Caelar, so the beginning of SoD isn't such a sudden and jarring change in the conditions in the city.  Could do all sorts of stuff...

 

 

One potential issue with changing when "EndOfBG1" is triggered - you may get content intended for before the final battle with Sarevok in the time between the battle and triggering the transition to Korlasz' tomb. 

 

Let's say an NPC mod has a dialog with CHARNAME about the upcoming confrontation with Sarevok. The mod uses ~GlobalLT("EndofBG1","GLOBAL",1)~ as a check on BGT/EET to make sure Sarevok has not been defeated. If the condition that sets EndOfBG1 is changed, this dialog could then trigger on an EET install after Sarevok's defeat.



#19 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:23 AM

Right, so some NPC might have a banter about something like "I'm nervous about our upcoming fight against Sarevok!" when Sarevok is already in the ground.

Honestly I'd be willing to overlook that. I mean there's something slightly 'off' about it either way... it would be nice to have a mod tge gives me the option to control how that manifests in the game. That's why my suggestion would be the creation of a small extra mod, rather than saying "EET should do it this way or that way."

You could add another global variable so that NPC modders could tie into it, if they want to. But it woukdn't be mandatory and the game would be playable regardless.

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#20 Roxanne

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:12 AM

, modders could come in a fill this new section of the game with more stuff, if they want to.  Add the Talos/Tamoko hideouts.  Add events or conversations that foreshadow the conflict stirred up by Caelar, so the beginning of SoD isn't such a sudden and jarring change in the conditions in the city.  Could do all sorts of stuff...

 

 

One potential issue with changing when "EndOfBG1" is triggered - you may get content intended for before the final battle with Sarevok in the time between the battle and triggering the transition to Korlasz' tomb. 

 

Let's say an NPC mod has a dialog with CHARNAME about the upcoming confrontation with Sarevok. The mod uses ~GlobalLT("EndofBG1","GLOBAL",1)~ as a check on BGT/EET to make sure Sarevok has not been defeated. If the condition that sets EndOfBG1 is changed, this dialog could then trigger on an EET install after Sarevok's defeat.

 

 

 

Right, so some NPC might have a banter about something like "I'm nervous about our upcoming fight against Sarevok!" when Sarevok is already in the ground.

Honestly I'd be willing to overlook that. I mean there's something slightly 'off' about it either way... it would be nice to have a mod tge gives me the option to control how that manifests in the game. That's why my suggestion would be the creation of a small extra mod, rather than saying "EET should do it this way or that way."

You could add another global variable so that NPC modders could tie into it, if they want to. But it woukdn't be mandatory and the game would be playable regardless.

 

Astrobryguy's concern was the own that was also bothering me the most. It could be a compatibility issue. I made some research due to this:

- in my EET install there are nearly 1400 hits for Scripts and 2500 dialogue states that make use of either GlobalLT("EndofBG1","GLOBAL",1) or Global("EndofBG1","GLOBAL",1)

- they are used by a significant number of different mods and those mods also use them in versions not for EET.

This fact alone would eliminate the option to have all these mods and ioccurances to be changed because we introduce the tweak as discussed here in this thread. Consequently such a tweak has to take care of the issue and assure compatibility.

 

Looking into some of the cases (surely not all because of the large number)

- the most use of this global is to determine where NPCs go when kicked out, as those are different locations if you are in SoD vs BG1

- second come triggers in PIDs

- third come dialogues referring to SoD content.after the introductory chapter

 

This is not comprehensive and not proof, but the number of dialogues referring to upcoming Sarevok AND using the trigger AND not having an additional condition to make them trigger before you enter Undercity is small - I am not saying that they do not exist.

 

So

*It is time for more experiments* to quote some famous somebody.


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#21 Roxanne

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:33 AM

The Sword of Chaos

- Experimental mini mod for EET-

 

After you defeat Sarevok in the Undercity, you find the Sword of Chaos he was wielding and it is now yours. While you return to the surface to report your success to the Dukes, you are ambushed and the sword is taken from you. Talking to the Dukes in the Palace and reading some scrolls from fallen assassins point to some remaining followers of Sarevok lead by some Korlasz.

The Dukes ask you to find and eliminate those villains which is also in your own interest. During this visit to the palace it is in addition decided that Imoen stays with Liia Jannath for some time. It is a promise the Dukes had made to Gorion and Winthrop to advance her education.

Leaving the palace, you meet Tamoko. You get a chance to let her join your party. (Unless you killed her earlier)

Whenever you decide to return to Undercity Temple, the transition to SoD will be done.

 

Notes

- This is currently a One-day quick and dirty coding for experimental use.

- Technically it delays the SoD transition after Sarevok's death. Talking to the dukes sets a global and returning to the temple starts the transition.

- Practically nothing in the original scripting of EET was changed except the one extra condition to start the transition (i.e. make a report to the dukes first) All other content is added to give the tweak a minimum of storyline. This can be extended if the experiment is successful.

- Tamoko has no content yet. It is currently just an idea of an NPC to fill for Imoen and may or may not be developped at another time.

- The global discussed in previous posts stays at 0 during the delay, i.e. you stay technically in BG1

- Under the above conditions you can play TotSC or any other quests left open in BG1 before you advance.

- The mod does not work if you have Sandrah or Jen'lig in your party (I can provide some lines of code to be added to one script to make that compatible if anyone needs it).

- the mod can be installed and tested on top of an existing EET installation PRIOR to entering the Bhaal Temple in Undercity.

 

Let us just test it and see if it is of any use. It may be better to have something on the table to discuss than just exchanging words. Not much will be lost if this is a dead-end.

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Edited by Roxanne, 18 April 2018 - 08:36 AM.

The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#22 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 11:58 AM

Super cool.

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#23 bob_veng

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 02:45 PM

  i'm not really qualified to proclaim this, but that's some unfathomable efficiency



#24 Kaliesto

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:25 PM

I made a grave error, I was reviewing the beginning of SoD and there is definitely time that has passed since Sarevok's defeat. So I believe Roxanne's mod would actually work out after all!

 

Question though, but shouldn't Safana have a small role in this since she is officially part of the starting party for SoD?


Edited by Kaliesto, 18 April 2018 - 08:32 PM.


#25 Roxanne

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:49 PM

I made a grave error, I was reviewing the beginning of SoD and there is definitely time that has passed since Sarevok's defeat. So I believe Roxanne's mod would actually work out after all!

 

Question though, but shouldn't Safana have a small role in this since she is officially part of the starting party for SoD?

If you go with a party of six into the transition to SoD (in EET) and Imoen is no longer there (which is the case here as she stays with Liia), then there is no Safana?


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#26 Roxanne

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:22 PM

 

I made a grave error, I was reviewing the beginning of SoD and there is definitely time that has passed since Sarevok's defeat. So I believe Roxanne's mod would actually work out after all!

 

Question though, but shouldn't Safana have a small role in this since she is officially part of the starting party for SoD?

If you go with a party of six into the transition to SoD (in EET) and Imoen is no longer there (which is the case here as she stays with Liia), then there is no Safana?

 

Anyway, you convinced me. Should this study turn into a mod, I will add a Safana appearance when you return to the temple in Undercity for the second time. She will be waiting outside, afraid to enter there alone even if the prospect of immense loot has attracted her to the place. She will just follow you inside, so if you meet her in SoD, you have a connection.


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#27 Roxanne

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:57 AM

I did some further research, testing, and brainstorming on this *Sword of Chaos* exercise.

Since I found a solution for the possible issue with the EndofBG1 global, I think that the idea is worth pursuing it further.

 

Eventually it may turn into a mod

- adding a short interval story between Sarevok dying and your arrival in Korlasz tomb. The original dialogue indeed implies that there is some (days) interval in between. A side effect is that the BG1 maps remain accessible until the player decides to move on into SoD rather than the immediate transition currently in EET.

- providing some clean-up to prevent some NPCs coming up with *important* news about some pre-Sarevok events while you move through the city.

- providing some insight in how Imoen leaves the player to stay with Liia Jannath for a while.

- introducing a long overdue joinable NPC - Tamoko - for those who did not blindly kill Sarevok's former lover.

 

Actually the focus of the planned mod that includes the above introduction will be Tamoko. I will add her for that late part of BG1 and then for SoD. She is supposed to provide some link for what has happened (insider view on Sarevok & Co) and what may come (she and Sarevok have studied the Bhaalspawn story/prophesy for a very long time). It will as well be the story of a woman with a tragic past full of horrible errors who may or may not get another chance.

 

Edited by Roxanne, 20 April 2018 - 01:03 PM.

The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 


#28 Sidecar

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 03:49 PM

This all sounds really cool. Now maybe there can be an explanation for Tamoko's death in BG2 even if you spare her in the prequel.



#29 AWizardDidIt

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:37 PM

I've always wanted Tamoko to be expanded upon and her death to be resolved even if you spared her at the end of BG1. Yoshimo was supposed to be a relative of hers iirc? I remember hearing that though it's not made explicit anywhere. 



#30 Roxanne

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 08:51 PM

I've always wanted Tamoko to be expanded upon and her death to be resolved even if you spared her at the end of BG1. Yoshimo was supposed to be a relative of hers iirc? I remember hearing that though it's not made explicit anywhere. 

This is continuously repeated in some forum but there is not a single evidence in the game confirming this. It is ourside material from some fiction maybe.

"You are from Kara-Tur? You must be Yoshimo's sister" - Just like, "You are Chinese? So how is Mr. Wei?"

I will not follow this fan fiction. BTW she is not even from Kara-Tur, her father was and that is part of her story.


The Sandrah Saga!

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 

 

 




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