Kivan of Shilmista - feedback

[Guest Kai of Candlekeep]

I just wanted to say that Kivan is one of the more fascinating new add-on NPC's, he brings a lot of new depth to this (to me) timeworn and much-played campaign. The mod description was completely accurate: Kivan's story is one of the sweetest, most romantic love stories in Baldur's Gate, something all the hopeless romantics out there are sure to appreciate and enjoy. Sheesh, even my (*cough*) macho boyfriend was moved practically to tears when we got to the part with Demin...

 

This mod is extremely well-wrintten, and technically sound. I haven't found any bugs in it so far, which is good, considering the number of other mods I have installed with my current game.

 

In going with my real desire to see further development into this mod, I have listed some suggestions, a "wish list" of sorts:

 

1) I love the banters that he has with Aerie, Jaheira and Minsc, although I would love to see him interact more with Viconia, Korgan, Tsujatha (another add-on NPC), Kelsey (we all know who HE is), Solaufein (ditto here), and Sarevok (ToB). I haven't played him with Mazzy and Valygar enough to see how much he banters with them, but it would be nice to see him interact with those two, especially Valygar, since they are both rangers.

 

2) I thought that Kivan should react when the party runs into Tazok in Firkraag's lair. Perhaps this could be turned into Kivan's own little "personal quest", since he does mention Tazok a few times in his inter-party banter dialogue.

 

3) Kivan should also react to Neb, the baby-killer (Illithium quest), since we did have a run-in with him in the original BG saga.

 

4) Maybe Kivan should react to Coran and Safana (Forest of Tethyr), even just a little. Also thought it would make sense for him to react to the Wraith Sarevok in hell.

 

5) Romance conflicts, if indeed the PC wants to romance Kivan, and Bodhi kidnapping scenario.

 

I would also love to see Kivan continue on in ToB, possibly Derehiana as well. Last time I brought him to ToB with me I was greatly dissappointed that he no longer presented any dialogue options, probably because he was not designed for ToB. He still functions quite well, however he no longer converses and banters with the other members of the party, which was rather sad since Kivan is such an interesting personality in his own right.

 

I know this wish list is a little on the long side, and I remember reading somewhere that this project was a week in the making (very impressive, BTW!) so he is far from "finished". There is so much potential for Kivan in both SoA and ToB...

 

Having said this, I would be more than happy to contribute in any way I can to his further development. I'm not much of a programmer, but I can at least help out with banters and dialogues, or something. If the author of this mod is interested, please email me at Natzjr2@yahoo.com and let me know what I can do to help.

[Domi]

Holly cow...

 

Er... not the sort of a reaction you'd expect, but I was very flattered by your review and was writing Shar-Teel just now...

 

You can find the full work scope for the project here:

 

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=1731

 

As you can see it sort of addresses many of your suggestions.

 

What is not addressed:

 

Modded NPCs:

Solaufein: I sent 4 banters to WW for Kivan-Solaufein and never had a reply; so no Solaufein for the time being.

Kelsey: JC went so Keto lately and to the best of my knowledge he had never writen any crossmod banters. I certainly will not be writing anything for Kivan-Kelsey without his cooperation.

Tsujatha: I can page Sillara to see if she is interested in more, but there are already 4

 

Original NPCs:

Korgan's set is bugged, so it does not show up properly; they have 4 banters wonderfully written by Hendryk Once I got to fixing it....

Viconia: after 8 banters they had in BG1 and being generally on each-other throats... I do not see them bantering more. Nightmare is your man

Sarevok: if ToB part would be developped there would be banters.

Mazzy and Valygar - both have a set of 4; Valygar's is the one I'd like to develop further, as well as Nalia's. You can see the banter count in this thread:

 

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=1738 (the number by the NPC's name indicates the banter count)

 

- listed interjection points (Neb, Coran, Safana, Tazok) - yes, it is something which needs to be developed

 

Romance conflicts, if indeed the PC wants to romance Kivan, and Bodhi kidnapping scenario.

 

Make it 'romance' Romance track is only briefly outlined. Bodhi's kidnapping however... I do not know what to do about it for Kivan (I am a great supporter of 'different' for different NPCs scenarios.)

 

I would also love to see Kivan continue on in ToB, possibly Derehiana as well. Last time I brought him to ToB with me I was greatly dissappointed that he no longer presented any dialogue options, probably because he was not designed for ToB. He still functions quite well, however he no longer converses and banters with the other members of the party, which was rather sad since Kivan is such an interesting personality in his own right.

 

Well, in most cases he'd die in the end of SoA. But yes, I have not attempted ToB part.

 

Yes, I am still interested into investing more into Kivan, expanding it and moving him from beta to final. However, I am booked solid with my pride and joy - BG1NPC project (in which, unsurprisingly, I also write for Kivan) - so I won't be able to return to Kivan for a bit. I am still in love with the project, so it keeps me from openning it to become a public source.

 

I know it's a dissappointing reply - but all I can do is to requote from my signature GRR Martin's words: 'Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.' I appreciate you offering help. Not many people are ready to do this and it's great. It's just the project is on hold, and if I ask you to do something, it is going to be boring stuff, like listing interjection points and it might take a few months before it gets implemented.

[Grim Squeaker]

Solaufein: I sent 4 banters to WW for Kivan-Solaufein and never had a reply; so no Solaufein for the time being.

Did you e-mail him or PM him at PPG? I suppose you could post in the Sola forums as well, but I don't know how often he checks them.

[Domi]

Solaufein: I sent 4 banters to WW for Kivan-Solaufein and never had a reply; so no Solaufein for the time being.

Did you e-mail him or PM him at PPG? I suppose you could post in the Sola forums as well, but I don't know how often he checks them.

PM'd through PPG.

[Guest Guest]

Romance conflicts, if indeed the PC wants to romance Kivan, and Bodhi kidnapping scenario.

 

Make it 'romance' Romance track is only briefly outlined. Bodhi's kidnapping however... I do not know what to do about it for Kivan (I am a great supporter of 'different' for different NPCs scenarios.)

 

If you're into "different", perhaps you shoud allow Bodhi to ressurect a "vampirized" version of Derehiana, and Kivan becomes so disturbed by this phantom that he goes (temporarily) insane, and ends up killing himself or getting killed somehow.

 

After Kivan dies in Bodhi's lair, have the spirit of Derehiana appear, and let her have a brief conversation with PC, kind of a woman-to-woman discourse on how Derehiana acknowledges the new relationship between Kivan and PC, and gives them her blessing. (That kinda helps tie in the loose ends, from Kivan going on and on about his former love, and then getting into a relationship with the PC).

 

Derehiana instructs PC to "seek Kivan among his people", namely, the elves, so PC then proceeds on to Suldanessellar, and Kivan is restored to her by Demin. At this point, it would also be good for Kivan to tell the PC (if they are in a romance) that during his "death" he finally got a chance to ask Derehiana's forgiveness, and all is finally well and his spirit is finally at peace with his dead wife. (I always enjoy a happy ending, don't you?) This helps the story of Kivan maintain consistency, because I truly don't see it being possible for him to find hapiness with the PC unless he somehow made peace with Derehiana's ghost. Further romance development would have to happen in ToB.

 

As far as a non-romance scenario, the one that is currently in place is perfect. It gives a nice closure to Kivan's journey, although it is rather unfortunate that it happens before the final battle, because then you have to fight Irenicus with one person missing from the party.

 

My suggestion for this part would be for Demin to promise Kivan a way to reach Derehiana AFTER the Exile is vanquished (i.e., sometime during Elliseme's "Thank You" speech at the very end). This way, if the PC does not want him to continue on for ToB, this is a nice little alternative ending for the heartsick Ranger. Perhaps the spirit of Derehiana comes to him and takes him (*shrug*) or something like that.

 

Also, there's always the option for Demin to bring Derehiana back to help with the final battle with Irenicus, and then both of them would be able to proceed on to ToB with the PC.

 

As I have said, I am more than willing to help if and when you are ready to work on this project again. My boyfriend does software testing and a little programming, so perhaps I can cajole him into helping with some of the more technical aspects. He has never played BG1 or 2, but he followed my progress through the Kivan mod and he got sucked into the story as much as I was, and he was the one left demanding to know (and I quote) "what ever happened to that elf archer dude??? Oh, man, that poor guy!!"

 

As far as banter scripts and the like, that is easy, as long as we had the permission of the other mod devs to expand on what is already there. I think that's the hardest part about writing cross-mod banters.

[Kai of Candlekeep]

Ack! That last post was mine, I forgot to log in (duhhh)

[Domi]

I am sorry, but the only thing I am more singulary opposed to than Deheriana's blessing is 'Deheriana is nothing special'. PC will only be able to romance Kivan if Deheriana is utterly destoryed and not in Arvanaith. As in her spirit does not exist any longer. If she her spirit exists and she is in Arvanaith, he will never consider being unfaithful to her. At least in this mod.

 

As far as a non-romance scenario, the one that is currently in place is perfect. It gives a nice closure to Kivan's journey, although it is rather unfortunate that it happens before the final battle, because then you have to fight Irenicus with one person missing from the party.

 

That's not true. You can ask Kivan to stand with you, w/o ressurecting Deheriana and he will; then he will leave during Ellesime's speach to depart to Arvanaith.

[Domi]

Also, there's always the option for Demin to bring Derehiana back to help with the final battle with Irenicus, and then both of them would be able to proceed on to ToB with the PC.

 

Yes, they can. If you restored Deheriana's spirit (ie had Cernd, Aerie or Paladin/Cleric PC) she will be revived, recognize Kivan and they will stay to go into ToB.

[Domi]

If you're into "different", perhaps you shoud allow Bodhi to ressurect a "vampirized" version of Derehiana, and Kivan becomes so disturbed by this phantom that he goes (temporarily) insane, and ends up killing himself or getting killed somehow

 

That's a bit too much like master wraith. I know that neither Bio nor custom elven mods address the 'elves turn undead = very very bad' I'd rather go for that motive with Kivan giving Bodhi a tongue lashing and her trying but not succeding to turn him vampiric (but probably level draining him into ground) and then having an additional battle at the enterance to the graveyard. I'd rather he does not die about too much.

[Kai of Candlekeep]

That's not true. You can ask Kivan to stand with you, w/o ressurecting Deheriana and he will; then he will leave during Ellesime's speach to depart to Arvanaith.

 

Hm... I guess because I totally missed the conversation with Aphril I didn't get this in my current game. I have to play again and see what happens. I guess I was concentrating too hard on getting through the Tsujatha mod and storyline that I failed to pay close enough attention to Kivan.

 

All this will be recrified with my next game though

 

I am sorry, but the only thing I am more singulary opposed to than Deheriana's blessing is 'Deheriana is nothing special'. PC will only be able to romance Kivan if Deheriana is utterly destoryed and not in Arvanaith. As in her spirit does not exist any longer. If she her spirit exists and she is in Arvanaith, he will never consider being unfaithful to her. At least in this mod.

 

True, it just occurred to me that Bodhi happens AFTER spellhold, and thus after the conversation with Aphril. My bad.

 

I suppose in time this will all get worked into the storyline, but I just find it hard to swallow that the NPC would knowingly enter into a romance with Kivan, knowing how he still feels about his wife. Kinda like the Jaheira/Khalid thing I guess (which I never truly approved of).

 

If you're into "different", perhaps you shoud allow Bodhi to ressurect a "vampirized" version of Derehiana, and Kivan becomes so disturbed by this phantom that he goes (temporarily) insane, and ends up killing himself or getting killed somehow

 

That's a bit too much like master wraith. I know that neither Bio nor custom elven mods address the 'elves turn undead = very very bad' I'd rather go for that motive with Kivan giving Bodhi a tongue lashing and her trying but not succeding to turn him vampiric (but probably level draining him into ground) and then having an additional battle at the enterance to the graveyard. I'd rather he does not die about too much.

 

But isn't Bodhi herself an elf....?

 

The problem with this whole Bodhi scenario is that this whole "vampirization" thing has been played to death, and yes, I agree with you 100% Domi.... something different would be very much welcomed. I guess this is why I liked the Tsujatha mod so much, because Sillara did something different.

 

I did read the post regarding your original plans for this mod, and it sounds like a huge project, and a very interesting one! I seriously hope you can find the time to put it together, and I'd be one of the first to download it and check it out.

 

In any case, Domi please do not take any offense at my suggestions because none is meant... I just want you to know how interested I am with your project and how pleased I was with the work you have already put into it.

[Domi]

In any case, Domi please do not take any offense at my suggestions because none is meant... I just want you to know how interested I am with your project and how pleased I was with the work you have already put into it.

O, no, i do ot go offended. I am juat used to responding all the time to questions/critiques/bug reports etc. Some things I agree upon, but some I am quite stubborn about. Kivan's character/storyline, unsurprisingly, is the areas I have the most unmovable opinions on.

 

I suppose in time this will all get worked into the storyline, but I just find it hard to swallow that the NPC would knowingly enter into a romance with Kivan, knowing how he still feels about his wife. Kinda like the Jaheira/Khalid thing I guess (which I never truly approved of).

 

This is exactly the dilemma I have been hitting against for three years. Now, I am talking about Kivan in my interpretation, and I agree that other takes on the characters are possible. But I have a very ridgid view on the character. I have had this argument with numerous people by now and it is as following:

 

Kivan's single most appealing treat is his loyalty to Deheriana. Them being bonded Elves, it is an unbreakable union. It's not human's true love. It's more than that.

 

With the destruction of their corporeal body Elves do not die; they depart for Arvanaith (exception might be an Elf had died a violent death far away from his community - what I hypothesise happened to Deheriana in one of the branches). Arvanaith is Elven Blessed land where they get their deepest desires fulfilled. Bonded elves rarely survive death of their mate. InKivan's case he did, but his lingering is justified by his service to Shevarash - and indeed no enemy is worst than an Elf bend on revenge. Note also, that Elves practically do not divorce if they marry (the source book mentions 1 divorce in 3,000 years). ANd, another, one of the most important parts of Elven existance is the ability to reverie. Elven Reverie is not a dream. It is a virtual reliving of their past. It is specifically granted to them to be able to live as long as they do and retain their memories.

 

All the above inevitably leads me to the same conclusion again and again - Deheriana is alive for Kivan. When he wakes from his reverie he had just kissed her or she had just died before his very eyes. It is not faded. It is not a thing of the past. It is there.

 

I understand that our utilitarian age dictates the desire for an interesting male to 'move on' the way Jaheira does; but it is unimaginable if Deheriana is in Arvanaith. Because his love for he is alive also and he would always want one thing only - be finally able to depart for Arvanaith himself. Elves can do and do it at will .

 

If she is destroyed, than maybe, just maybe you open up a narrow gap for a very poignant romance. Yes, PC would have to agree to being the second best and to heal a broken man who have nothing on the Prime and nothing beyound it. Or she can chose to remain the very best friend and try to heal. I know it's tough to swallow. I know that everyone who thinks 'Kivan romance' thinks that PC be the second Deheriana. But the truth about the character, the uniqueness of the character is that there can only be one Deheriana. And that's the bitter beauty of it. Take it away - and you make Kivan into the garden variety widower at large. Make Deheriana bless Kivan to fool around you will violate the sanctity of the Elven bond and introduce more mushiness than this plot can take. It is already melodramatic; it barely holds. And the only thing that holds it together is imo that magnificent, utterly devoted and blind to common sense character. Kivan.

 

Can this romance be successfull? I frankly do not know. In fact I usually believe that they will prove unsuccessfull. Because when I plan a romance I try to make it different. Coran's is a long shot from Valygar's (er... in fact Coran's is a long shor from anything) , Sime's is nothing like Dynaheir's. And if I take Xan's on... o, boy! However, one thing is always the same - I try to make each and everyone of them to build up to something surprising and sometimes grand. Am I scared of writing Kivan's? You bet! But he is also the most interesting to me as a person.

 

But isn't Bodhi herself an elf....?

 

Yes, and that's why Kivan would be extremely violent against her. Bodhi, for Kivan is the worst creature possible, the violation of everything Elven. Not only she conspired to destroy her community by draining its mythal, which is an inconceivable vileness in the eyes of an elf, for whom his/her community is the main thing. She also turned to undeath - another grave an iunimaginable crime.

 

As for unique vampire abduction scenarios, I did it in Valygar's romance as well, so Sillara is not unique

 

I did read the post regarding your original plans for this mod, and it sounds like a huge project, and a very interesting one! I seriously hope you can find the time to put it together, and I'd be one of the first to download it and check it out.

 

Thank you I am glad you like the plans.

[Kai of Candlekeep]

I absolutely agree with your concept for Kivan's character.

 

The part about Kivan that appealed to me the most (with the version of the mod I currently have installed) is his deep capacity for friendship:

 

1) His comforting words to Jaheira regarding Khalid;

2) His camraderie with Minsc and his empathy (not sympathy) regarding Misc's belief that he failed to protect Dynaheir;

3) His kindhearted and thoughtful advice to Aerie (that, BTW, was one of the sweetest pieces of dialogue I have seen in this game);

4) The quiet stregth-of-spirit he lends to his companions throughout the game

 

 

Based on the current dialogue he has (not the forced talk), it really does come across like he and the PC have adventured together for a long time and he does come across as a very good, dear friend.

 

This is probably the aspect of the mod I would more enjoy seeing development in, because in going along with the premise that the PC is facing one of the greatest crisis of his/her life during SoA (especially ToB), he/she would definitely need a lot more "friends" around her at the time, rather than just another would-be suitor.

 

Having read all the things you posted, it makes me realize that a Kivan romance would not work, rather, maybe future releases of this mod might include more "friendship" conversations between him and the PC and maybe some of the other travelling companions. I think rather than making him a "romanceable" type NPC, "forced talk" dialogue option should include some way of maybe asking Kivan for advice and/or drawing comfort from his quiet strength. It would be kinda like calling up your best friend in the middle of the night during some kind of personal crisis.

 

"Hey, Kivan? Can I talk to you a minute? My friend, I'm confused and my soul is gone and I feel awful...."

 

And instead of love talks, Kivan can just say nice, comforting, friendly-type things to be more of a supporter and best-friend type character, rather than a lover. Hm. Yes, I think I like that idea

 

Kivan is very wise, despite being young (by elf standards) and he has seen a lot and been through a lot, and I think in this aspect he would have a lot to contribute to the team as a whole.

 

Assuming Kivan continues to accompany PC to the end of SoA, additional banters between him and the other Bioware NPCs would be nice to see, most especially Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie (doesn't he offer to bring Aerie back to Shilmastra after all is done?), possibly have him develop some kind of friendship for Viconia (out of sympathy, and perhaps a desire to help her find a place among other elves).

 

Also, if Derehiana does return to life, I am assuming you will script in something that causes both of them to leave during Elliseme's speech at the very end, yes?

 

However, I wonder if they can be sumoned to the pocket-plane in ToB? If so, I do agree that their 2nd separation would be painful, so maybe adding some kind of benefit to having them both in the party for ToB would be called for... such as, they get weaker (physically) or something unless they are summoned together. *shrug* I dunno. It's almost cruel to think you would summon Kivan back for ToB, after he finally gets reunited with Derehiana, but on the other hand, it is so very difficult to lose the best archer in game.

[Domi]

This is probably the aspect of the mod I would more enjoy seeing development in, because in going along with the premise that the PC is facing one of the greatest crisis of his/her life during SoA (especially ToB), he/she would definitely need a lot more "friends" around her at the time, rather than just another would-be suitor.

 

Yes, that is the plan; there are plenty of topics on my list of dialogues, some of which will work only for a female PC. The stereotype that only an NPC who sleeps with PC will have more than 10 talks with him/her is just that - a stereotype.

 

Having read all the things you posted, it makes me realize that a Kivan romance would not work, rather, maybe future releases of this mod might include more "friendship" conversations between him and the PC and maybe some of the other travelling companions.

 

I do not think it matters how you call it; romance, friendship... who cares? For me the main thing is to preserve the concept of the character and build a unique and credible relationship between him and PC/NPCs. And if he is not the type to swear his undying love in Love Talk 16 and rip her clothes off hungrily on the bed of grass and flowers in Love Talk 20 than so be it: he'd rather talk about fletching arrows in Talk 16 and be teased about his good looks in Talk 20.

 

Also, if Derehiana does return to life, I am assuming you will script in something that causes both of them to leave during Elliseme's speech at the very end, yes?

 

If Deheriana gets revived (not simply ressurected), she gets a large increase in the XP (maybe some stats increase as well, if I can talk someone to do the corresponding spells for me); both Kivan and Deheriana are planned to undergo a change in character at that stage; Kivan becomes more of his old self; Deheriana becomes a relatively sheltered elf, who has little understanding of other cultures and the world beyound Shilmista. Their banters for ToB will include both love fluff, him telling her of his travels and trying to ajust her to the adventuring lifestyle, which she would not find an easy one.

 

I would not want them summoned via Fate Spirit; probably the max I would do is to add a message that they are otherwise occupied

 

Assuming Kivan continues to accompany PC to the end of SoA, additional banters between him and the other Bioware NPCs would be nice to see, most especially Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie (doesn't he offer to bring Aerie back to Shilmastra after all is done?)

 

Do you mean ToB? Yes, I will definetly add new banters for ToB, if it is ever developped; there will be a minimum 2 banters for Deheriana and Kivan with every BioWARE NPC in ToB. Adding to SoA, though.... See, JC characterises Keto as a chatty bard and she has in his words about 100 banters. The strong and silent type, Kivan, has about 70. So to keep the balance, he should not banter too much more. I, myself am greatly interested in developing more banters for him with 3 characters - Haer'Dalis, Nalia and Valygar. I do not mind adding more to Aerie, there were plans for banters related to her romance with Haer'Dalis and PC; as for Minsc, I would not mind adding more, but only if I have a good idea, that does not involve Boo.

 

possibly have him develop some kind of friendship for Viconia (out of sympathy, and perhaps a desire to help her find a place among other elves).

 

For this, I again recommend you Nightmare's version of Kivan; Kivan in this mod will never make peace with Viconia, befriend her or moreover find her a place between elves. It's just not possible. Her crimes are too great for her to continue elude justice. Solaufein on another hand... (sighs)

[Kai of Candlekeep]

For this, I again recommend you Nightmare's version of Kivan; Kivan in this mod will never make peace with Viconia, befriend her or moreover find her a place between elves. It's just not possible. Her crimes are too great for her to continue elude justice. Solaufein on another hand... (sighs)

 

I haven't been able to find this in the forum (I'm just a n00blet), can you post a link to this thread so I can check it out?

 

Thanks Domi

 

So you are partially responsible for Keto as well, eh? Cool, I grabbed her today and am in the process of checking her out.

[Domi]

Nope, I had nothing to do with Keto, just used her as an example of a 'chatty' character.

 

Nightmare's mod is called Lands of Intrigue and can be found in the 'Under Development' section of this forum.