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Kit Revisions (Paladins)


Demivrgvs

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As a general thing, what I really don't like about these classes in vanilla is that they got almost everything at 1st lvl and then they had no progression (except spellcasting abilities later on - but the Inquisitor got NOTHING new until HLAs). This is something worth discussing imo, because even if they cannot be exploited to create absurd dual-class combos, getting everything at 1st lvl surely is unbalanced for BG1, and makes the class more "boring" by removing the sense of achievement of reaching new abilities when gaining new levels.

Another general consideration I'd make is that making Paladin kits unable to cast spells (as per PnP) may seem like removing a defining feature, but it's actually a good thing imo. This way Paladin's divine spellcasting can allow them to do almost everything the other kits can do (Resist Fear, Dispel Magic, Lesser Restoration, etc.) but kits get more powerful versions of those abilities, can use them sooner and/or more often, and get them as permanent/passive abilities or insta-casting innates. What do you think?


True Paladin
"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to smite evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful.

Paladins are almost exclusively human, whose sense of ambition and purpose makes excellent champions of an ideal or the divine. Among other races, paladins are extremely rare. Though paladins are typically devoted followers of law and good, there are infamous examples of fallen paladins.

Paladins serve as beacons for their allies within the chaos of battle. While deadly opponents of evil, they can also empower goodly souls to aid in their crusades. Their magic and martial skills also make them well suited to defending others and blessing the fallen with the strength to continue fighting
."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can specialize (++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Has +2 bonus to all saves.
- Can use Detect Evil at will.
- At 1st level, can use Smite Evil once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at level 10.
- At 2nd level, becomes immune to fear.
- At 3rd level, can use Turn Undead ability as a cleric of two levels lower.
- At 3rd level, can use Lay on Hands once per day. For every 3 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at levels 6 and 9.
- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.
- At 5th level, becomes immune to all diseases.
- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.
- At 11th level, gains Aura of Protection. This ability improves further at levels 14 and 17.

SMITE EVIL: During the round when this ability is activated the paladin gains +2 bonus to attack rolls, and any melee hit against an evil creature causes 1d6 additional points of magic damage. For every 4 levels, the additional damage increases by 1d6, up to 6d6 at 20th level.
At 10th level, any evil creature struck must make a save. spell or be blinded for 1 round.

LAY ON HANDS: Heals a target for 2 hit points per level of the paladin, up to 40 hit points per use at 20th level.
At 6th level, it also cures the target from any disease.
At 9th level, it also neutralizes poison effects.

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the paladin can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels the paladin can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

AURA OF PROTECTION: Evil creatures within 15 feet of the paladin suffer -1 penalty to attack rolls.
At 14th level, the aura also imposes a -1 penalty to evil creature's damage rolls.
At 17th level, allies within the aura get +1 to all saves.

Notes:
KR's Paladin is a mix of its AD&D version and Pathfinder's Paladin.
- the most noticeable change imo is the new progression of the Divine Spellcasting ability. The Paladin now starts casting spells at level 4 (a la 3E) instead of 9 (a la AD&D) and gets his own appropriate spellbook (aka no Animate Dead, Cloak of Fear, Poison or similar spells). Last but not least, their "caster lvl" now matches the actual character level instead of vanilla's "paladin level -7" which was kinda confusing imo.
- Smite Evil is a must imo, one the most defining features of this class and the natural companion of Detect Evil.
- adding PnP Divine Health (aka immunity to disease) was obvious imo considering it has always been there since since AD&D.
- I'd personally add at least one more use of Lay on Hands (e.g. at 10th lvl), and perhaps allow more uses via HLAs. Once per day isn't enough to make it matter (especially at mid-high lvls), and more uses also makes it a more defining class feature imo. Pathfinder Paladin added an interesting take on this ability, Mercy, allowing players to improve LoH with various effects at higher levels. For example we could have a 6th level Paladin use Lay on Hands to cure disease (deprecating the separate Cure Disease ability which AD&D and 3E paladins get at 6th lvl), and then cure blindness/deafness at 9th lvl. Each Paladin's kit may then use different effects.
- AD&D paladin had an Aura of Protection at 1st level (-1 thac0 to evil creatures within 10 feet), 3E auras only granted limited effects we cannot reproduce (e.g. Aura of Courage grants +4 to saves vs. fear to allies). Ideally I was thinking to give each kit a different aura, but finding 4 auras and 12 upgrades is an impossible task. Perhaps it's better to give a single distinct powerful aura to each paladin class via HLA, and keep the standard Aura of Protection the same for all of them. What do you think?


Cavalier
"While many warriors strive to perfect their art, spending all of their time honing their skill at martial arms, others spend as much effort dedicating themselves to a cause. These warriors, known as cavaliers, swear themselves to a purpose, serving it above all else. The cavalier represents the most common picture of the knight; the gentleman warrior who epitomises honour, courage and loyalty. The cavalier’s true power comes from the conviction of his ideals, the oaths that he swears, and the challenges he makes. When all seems lost, the cavalier is a beacon of hope who continues to fight on despite the odds. No cause is yet lost when a cavalier still battles on its name.

Charismatic and inspiring figures, cavaliers maintain not only the military security of the land, but also its moral strength. A cavalier might drive off a marauding troll, but he could also mediate a dispute between two farmers, break the power of a corrupt noble, or free a wrongly accused prisoner.

Cavaliers are fearless and skilled warriors, with unmatched strength of will and supernatural resilience to both magical and mundane hazards. These knights in shining armor tend to marshal forces on the battlefield, always leading from the front and bringing out the best in their allies."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can specialize (++) in any melee weapon proficiency.
- Can achieve Mastery (+++) in long sword, bastard sword, flail and mace proficiency.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Has +2 bonus to all saves.
- Can use Detect Evil at will.
- At 1st level, gains specialization (++) in Sword and Shield style.
- At 1st level, can use Challenge Evil once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 2nd level, becomes immune to fear effects.
- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.
- At 5th level, becomes immune to charm effects.
- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.
- At 11th level, gains Aura of Protection. This ability improves further at levels 14 and 17.

CHALLENGE EVIL: During the round when this ability is activated the Cavalier gains +2 bonus to attack rolls, and any evil creature struck cannot move for 1 round, feeling compelled to fight the Cavalier in preference over other available targets.

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the Cavalier can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels the paladin can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

AURA OF PROTECTION: Evil creatures within 15 feet of the paladin suffer -1 penalty to attack rolls.
At 14th level, the aura also imposes a -1 penalty to evil creature's damage rolls.
At 17th level, allies within the aura get +1 to all saves.

Notes:
Implementing this class requires to take some liberty because mounted combat doesn't exist in BG, but we might try to take inspiration from AD&D Cavalier and Pathfinder's Cavalier, or even 3E Knight, which fits the concept extremely well imo.
- this kit had really too many bonuses and no real drawbacks. I think this kit should not get 'Turn Undead', and I also prefer it to not get 'priest's spells' too considering this kit actually was a Fighter kit within AD&D.
- Immunity to fear probably is the most defining feature of this class, though I believe all paladins should share it.
- AD&D Cavalier got +4 to saves against charm and most mind-affecting spells, thus BG2 not documented Immunity to charm was somewhat appropriate. We could keep the immunity to charm, or grant the class a +2 bonus to saves vs. mind affecting spells (possible only with SR), which coupled with the hardcoded +2 bonus to all saves will simulate PnP +4 bonus.
- Otoh Immunity to poison is not a PnP feat, and we have plenty of more appropriate classes for it.
- Fire and acid resistances were really too random instead, and have been removed.
- I've removed the +3 hit/dmg bonus against demons and dragons (which doesn't even stack with bonuses from weapons with similar effects) and granted instead the ability to achieve Weapon Mastery with appropriate weapons. AD&D Cavalier got attack rolls bonuses with long swords, bastard sword, flail and lance. The best way to implement it within BG is to allow a higher level of proficiency, and doing that would makes Cavalier look as the most martially skilled paladin, which is fitting imo, especially considering the Cavalier actually was a Fighter kit within AD&D. We obviously don't have lances within BG (there's no mounted combat) but we can add the mace imo (another classic weapon of medieval's cavaliers).
- I've removed vanilla's Remove Fear with Heroism. Even an unkitted Paladin could easily remove fear with a single 1st level spell, and the Cavalier has access to Divine Spellcasting too.
- The Cavalier now gets automatic proficiency points into Sword & Shield style
- The Cavalier gets a semi-unique spellbook which includes custom tailored spells to make him perform the role of the knight protector: Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Divine Retaliation, and Heroism.


Inquisitor
"While many champions of good are dedicated to fighting forces of evil that are clear threats to their country, their ideals or their church - as cavaliers and paladins are devoted to destroying evil armies and powerful demons - the inquisitor is at least as concerned about evil and corruption that conceal or disguise itself. When greed eats away at a church hierarchy, when devils infiltrate a knightly order or seduce its leaders to evil, when admirable governors succumb to evil enchantments and fall from the path of righteousness, it is usually an inquisitor who uncovers the evil and cuts it away.

Inquisitors tend to move from place to place, chasing down enemies and researching emerging threats. As a result, they often travel with others, and work with members of their faith whenever possible, though even such allies are not above suspicion.

Inquisitors dedicate their life to finding and eliminating practitioners of manipulative and deceptive evil magic. They specialize in divination, to detect evil and corruption, and abjuration, to protect themselves and others from evil magic."

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can specialize (++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Has +2 bonus to all saves.
- Can use Detect Evil at will.
- At 1st level, can use Dispel Evil once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at 10th level.
- At 2nd level, becomes immune to charm effects.
- At 3rd level, can use Lay on Hands once per day. At levels 6 and 9, the ability improves and can be used an additional time per day.
- At 4th level, can use True Seeing once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.
- At 5th level, Gains a +2 bonus to saves vs. spell.
- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.
- At 11th level, gains Aura of Protection. This ability improves further at levels 14 and 17.

DISPEL EVIL: Removes all magical effects upon a single evil creature. The Inquisitor has a +5 bonus to caster level on dispel checks to determine the chance of a successful attempt.
At 10th level, any summoned creature hit by Dispel Evil must make a save. spell or be banished.

LAY ON HANDS: Heals a target for 2 hit points per level, up to 40 hit points per use at 20th level.
At 6th level, it also cures from mind-affecting effects such as confusion, feeblemind and sleep.
At 9th level, it also removes most curses from the target.

TRUE SEEING: Instantly and once each round for 1 turn, all hostile illusion/phantasm spells in the area of effect will be dispelled.

AURA OF PROTECTION: Evil creatures within 15 feet of the paladin suffer -1 penalty to attack rolls.
At 14th level, the aura also imposes a -1 penalty to evil creature's damage rolls.
At 17th level, allies within the aura get +1 to all saves.

Notes:
This time around the sources of inspiration are AD&D Inquisitor, and 3E Church Inquisitor PrC, whereas Pathfinder take on this class has absolutely nothing in common with a Paladin. The Inquisitor was the most effective Paladin kit within BG2 imo, but unlike other kits it also had severe drawbacks making it kinda fine.
- AD&D Inquisitor could only dispel evil magic (starting at 3rd lvl), and we can implement it by making Dispel Evil a single target dispel effect which only works against evil targets (still most of BG opponents anyway). The latter change will also add a real use for Inquisitor's Detect Evil. Furthermore, vanilla's Dispel Magic was cast at x2 caster lvl (which combined with the large AoE made this ability utterly overpowered at mid-high levels). I suggest to make it work exactly as per PnP Inquisitor, making him cast the spell with a +5 caster lvl bonus (aka 75% chance to dispel vs same level caster).
- AD&D Inquisitor is immune to illusions. While vanilla's True Seeing was insanely more powerful of both PnP True Seeing and Inquisitor intended feature, if Spell Revisions is installed this ability will finally be more balanced, and incidentally it will also work much more similarly to PnP Inquisitor's immunity to illusions. Long story short, no radical changes are needed imo.
- In exchange for the nerfed Dispel Magic I'd give this kit Lay on Hands back. Furthermore at higher levels Inquisitor's LoH could get upgrades to cure charm (not fully doable without SR V4) mind-affecting effects (e.g. confusion, feeblemind, etc.) and/or curses.
- if we want to give this class new features I don't have many ideas and I actually imagined them as HLAs, such as a Banishing ability or an anti-shapeshifting ability (aka PnP Force Shapechange). Otoh these could instead be potential upgrades for Inquisitor's Dispel Evil.


Undead Hunter
"Undead are an abomination in the eyes of the just and righteous. It is no surprise then that there are some paladins that dedicate themselves to wiping these unholy terrors from the world. These undead hunters believe undead are a scourge upon the living that must be eradicated, and the worst of the undead are the ones with unnatural appetites for flesh and blood - things that should persist without feeding, but consume anyway. Creatures such as vampires and ghouls are especially dangerous because they turn their victims into more of their kind, and just one reckless night-feeder can turn an entire city into a den of undead. Rare even in the most grim realms, and looked with awe by most, undead hunters lead lonely existences under the constant threat of becoming that which they live to destroy.

The undead hunters use their skills and magic to track and slay the dead, walking a fine line between the purity of good magic and the tempting evil of turning dark necromancy against the unliving. While most paladins rush into battle, meeting evil toe-to-toe, these holy hunters often prefer to engage evil from afar, striking down their foes before they can threaten their allies
.

Class Features:
- Rolls d10 for hit points.
- Can specialize (++) in any weapon proficiency.
- Can use all types of armor.
- Has +2 bonus to all saves.
- Can use Detect Evil at will.
- At 1st level, can use Ranged Smite Evil once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day. This ability improves significantly at 10th level.
- At 2nd level, becomes immune to fear.
- At 3rd level, can use Turn Undead ability as a cleric of two levels lower.
- At 3rd level, can use Lay on Hands once per day. At levels 6 and 9, the ability improves and can be used an additional time per day.
- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.
- At 5th level, becomes immune to paralysis.
- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.
- At 11th level, gains Aura of Protection. This ability improves further at levels 14 and 17.

RANGED SMITE EVIL: During the round when this ability is activated the Undead Hunter gains +2 bonus to attack rolls, and any melee or ranged hit against an evil creature causes 1d6 additional points of magic damage. For every 4 levels, the additional damage increases by 1d4, up to 6d4 at 20th level. Undead creatures suffer double damage.
At 10th level, any undead creature struck must make a save. spell or be destroyed.

LAY ON HANDS: Heals a target for 2 hit points per level of the paladin, up to 40 hit points per use at 20th level.
At 6th level, it also cures the target from paralysis.
At 9th level, it also restores drained levels.

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the Undead Hunter can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels he can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

AURA OF PROTECTION: Evil creatures within 15 feet of the paladin suffer -1 penalty to attack rolls.
At 14th level, the aura also imposes a -1 penalty to evil creature's damage rolls.
At 17th level, allies within the aura get +1 to all saves.

Notes:
The only AD&D Undead Hunter was actuallly called Ghosthunter (from The Paladin's Handbook). I mostly take inspiration from there, 3E Hunter of the Dead, and Pathfinder's Undead Scourge (a Paladin's archetype).
- AD&D Ghosthunter had a stronger Turn Undead (sadly not implementable), and could use Remove Paralysis (instead of Paladins' Cure Disease) and Dispel Evil (eh?!?), but could not cast spells. I do suggest to follow this route by removing spellcasting, give Lay on Hands back and allow it to cure paralysis and level drain at higher levels.
- as per AD&D Ghosthunter I'm fine keeping immunity to paralysis and level drain, though I'd move the latter to at least 5th level to get some progression to the class.
- I'd replace the +3 hit/dmg with a more cool-looking ability, especially considering the current implementation doesn't stack with Undead Bane weapons such as the Mace of Disruption. Instead I'd give him a new innate ability (e.g. something which temporary adds the Disruptive feat to any weapon) and/or make Undead Hunter's Smite Evil deal more damage when used against undead creatures.

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1. Aura effect

That's good idea and it is quite reasonable for Paladins. However, I wonder how to make difference between Aura and Bard's Songs. These seem to be very very simliar imo. Furthermore, Aura effect is even more powerful than Songs because it doesn't need to concentrate to keep Aura unlike Bard's Songs (Of course, Bards also would be able to attack enemies or cast spells if they have lingering song ability).

 

2. Cavalier

Allowing Cavalier using one-hand weapon with shield is good concept imo. But, as you know, every player prefer to select two-handed weapon as Paladin's main weapon in order to use Carsomyr! :p Who could give it up!?

 

3. Paladin kits

In vanilla's version, Cavalier can be said as natural enemy of demonic/dragonic creatures. And, Inquisitor is mage's counter. Finally, Undead Hunter is hunter of undead as the name means. However, this concept hardly characterize about each kit in aspect of real implementation in game. So... frankly speaking, we might be better to rename/remake some kit to distinguish each other more individually, though that makes the mod not to "revision".

 

 

 

BTW I don't like both Rangers and Paladins because only good-alignment can be those classes/kits. Should we restrict the alignment? So far as I know any alignment can be selected for those classes in IWD2.

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Paladin

Smite Evil is good in a sense you'd actually find a use for Detect Evil ability.

Detect Evil - I think it should be unlimited/at will, rather than 1 per level.

Divine Health - yes.

Cure Disease - I suppose it's better as an enhanced LoH.

Aura - +4 morale aura is fine for early BG1, but becomes quite useless starting from 4-5 level and completely obsolete in BG2.

 

 

Cavalier

Yes for all suggestions. No poison immunity.

 

 

Inquisitor

Dispel is unbalanced and there is nothing we can really do about it. Possible options:

1) Make it single-targeted (ignores II due to TS).

2) Make it an on-hit ability, much like Carsomyr.

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Inquisitor

2) Make it an on-hit ability, much like Carsomyr.

This seems to be good alternative solution. IMO breach-like effect (remove 1 protection spell such as stone skin, illusion, improved invisibility, etc. from target per hit) is better than dispel-like effect (remove all of protections from mage per hit) for it due to balance problem.

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I believe BG2 Cavalier class is a sort of combination between AD&D Cavaliers and Wyrmslayer paladin kit (hence the bonus vs dragons, and resistance to fire and acid - which includes the breath weapons used by two of the evil SoA dragons).

 

Neither Wyrmslayers nor Cavaliers could turn undead in PnP, and conceptually this seems like an appropriate restriction - the Cavalier prefers to charge the undead rather than brandish a cross at them.

 

The "+4 morale bonus" aura may be buggy - I tested something similar for a variant Emotion spell - it looks like the "break morale" opcode can wrap-around if it exceeds 20 and thus cause panic rather than prevent it.

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Paladins

I don't like both Rangers and Paladins because only good-alignment can be those classes/kits. Should we restrict the alignment? So far as I know any alignment can be selected for those classes in IWD2.
Paladins being restricted to LG is a must have imo, it's the first thing which defines the whole class, all their granted powers and limitations. I really don't know how other alignments could fit this class (e.g. a neutral Paladin? a chaotic Paladin?!?). I see some space for anti-paladins, but they actually are a completely different class with different (almost opposite) powers.

 

I'm more sympathetic when it comes to rangers, though even in this case most of the class background fits good-aligned characters more than evil ones. Anyway, afaik the whole matter (including the "fallen" paladin/ranger part) is hardcoded, so there's little room for changes here.

 

Btw, IWD's Paladins can only be of LG alignment.

 

In vanilla's version, Cavalier can be said as natural enemy of demonic/dragonic creatures. And, Inquisitor is mage's counter. Finally, Undead Hunter is hunter of undead as the name means. However, this concept hardly characterize about each kit in aspect of real implementation in game. So... frankly speaking, we might be better to rename/remake some kit to distinguish each other more individually, though that makes the mod not to "revision".
I really don't see the necessity of completely replacing the kits with different ones, and it would indeed go beyond Revisions scope imo.

 

Smite Evil

Smite Evil is good in a sense you'd actually find a use for Detect Evil ability.

Detect Evil - I think it should be unlimited/at will, rather than 1 per level.

You do have a point about Smite Evil adding some purpose to Detect Evil. This sinergy alone probably is a good enough reason to implement it.

 

Auras

That's good idea and it is quite reasonable for Paladins. However, I wonder how to make difference between Aura and Bard's Songs. These seem to be very very simliar imo. Furthermore, Aura effect is even more powerful than Songs because it doesn't need to concentrate to keep Aura unlike bard's Songs (Of course, Bards also would be able to attack enemies or cast spells if they have lingering song ability).
I actually never thought to compare the two abilities. Mmm...I can see some similarities, but they are also very different. Bard's songs have much more powerful effects compared to paladin's auras (e.g. Skald's +2 to hit/dmg/AC compared to paladin's "+1 AC"), and songs affect a much bigger area (30' radius instead of a small 10'). Aura effects are passive, but even then they really cannot compete in terms of effectiveness and versatility to bard's songs imo.

 

The way I see it, paladin's auras are not there to really change the flow of combat, but to simply represent they are not simple beings, ther are gods champions, and their mere presence positively affects allies and/or destabilizes evil minions.

 

 

Cavalier

Neither Wyrmslayers nor Cavaliers could turn undead in PnP, and conceptually this seems like an appropriate restriction - the Cavalier prefers to charge the undead rather than brandish a cross at them.
Yeah, concept wise neither turning undead nor casting spells from afar suits Cavaliers imo.

 

Btw, I've updated the first post with a new extended background for Cavaliers. It's a work in progress, but it should give an idea of how a Cavalier is supposed to look like imo and what he is supposed to have/do.

 

Allowing Cavalier using one-hand weapon with shield is good concept imo. But, as you know, every player prefer to select two-handed weapon as Paladin's main weapon in order to use Carsomyr! :p Who could give it up!?
I don't want to craft a class around a single item, and if Carsomyr is the only weapon a paladin may want to wield than the problem is Carsomyr imo. IR should try to rectify that, and Cavaliers would still have plenty of really great and appropriate late-game weapons to wield, not to mention there actually is a one-handed Holy Avenger too, The Purifier. Long story short, if something needs to be done is making both Holy Avengers almost equally appealing.

 

 

Inquisitor

Dispel is unbalanced and there is nothing we can really do about it. Possible options:

1) Make it single-targeted (ignores II due to TS).

2) Make it an on-hit ability, much like Carsomyr.

1) Fine with me, though it's not a big deal imo.

2) On one hand I like it, otoh I don't want it to overlap with Carsomyr and I prefer it to remain as per PnP as possible as long as it's balanced.

 

Btw, one thing we may try to ask for BGEE is to make Dispel opcode to make a separate check for each dispellable effect, instead of wiping all effects on a single successfull check. That's what makes the current Dispel kinda OP imo.

 

IMO breach-like effect (remove 1 protection spell such as stone skin, illusion, improved invisibility, etc. from target per hit) is better than dispel-like effect (remove all of protections from mage per hit) for it due to balance problem.

Actually this reminds me one more reason to keep Inquisitor's Dispel a spell-like ability as per PnP rather than a combat one. A breach-like strike suits Wizard Slayers much more imo. The Inquisitor belongs to a semi-spellcasting class, and we should preserve everything that makes the two classes look different imo.
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Paladins

Btw, IWD's Paladins can only be of LG alignment.

Oh, I'm sorry for the wrong information.

 

 

I actually never thought to compare the two abilities. Mmm...I can see some similarities, but they are also very different. Bard's songs have much more powerful effects compared to paladin's auras (e.g. Skald's +2 to hit/dmg/AC compared to paladin's "+1 AC"), and songs affect a much bigger area (30' radius instead of a small 10'). Aura effects are passive, but even then they really cannot compete in terms of effectiveness and versatility to bard's songs imo.

That diffrences are enough to distinguish between Paladins and Bards. (Though I already suggested the weaker/smaller effects of Aura-like buff for Blade as passive on-hit trigger ability with cumulative possibility, it would be also quite different to your suggestion for Paladins' Auras).

 

I don't want to craft a class around a single item, and if Carsomyr is the only weapon a paladin may want to wield than the problem is Carsomyr imo. IR should try to rectify that, and Cavaliers would still have plenty of really great and appropriate late-game weapons to wield, not to mention there actually is a one-handed Holy Avenger too, The Purifier. Long story short, if something needs to be done is making both Holy Avengers almost equally appealing.

Yes, that's indeed item-level problems rather than kits'.

 

Actually this reminds me one more reason to keep Inquisitor's Dispel a spell-like ability as per PnP rather than a combat one. A breach-like strike suits Wizard Slayers much more imo. The Inquisitor belongs to a semi-spellcasting class, and we should preserve everything that makes the two classes look different imo.

Mmm... you're right, but I think the Dispel-like effect, which removes all of the protection/self-buff spells (though it also may remove negative effects' spells), is quite overpowered. If we keep the effect to Inquisitor, it should change to x/day ability to give some limitation imo.

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General

As a general thing, what I really don't like about these classes is that they get almost everything at 1st lvl and then they have no progression (except spellcasting abilities later on - but the Inquisitor gets NOTHING new until HLAs). This is something worth discussing imo, because even if they cannot be exploited to create absurd dual-class combos, getting everything at 1st lvl may be unbalanced, and surely makes the class more "boring" by removing the sense of achievement of reaching new abilities when gaining new levels.

I like what you have done so far, but I'd go a bit further and add some things at mid lvl.

 

Another general consideration I'd make is that making Paladin kits unable to cast spells (as per PnP) may seem like removing a defining feature, but it's actually a good thing imo. This way Paladin's divine spellcasting can allow them to do almost everything the other kits can do (Resist Fear, Dispel Magic, Lesser Restoration, etc.) but kits get more powerful versions of those abilities, can use them sooner and/or more often, and get them as permanent/passive abilities or insta-casting innates. What do you think?

I'm with you here. True Paladins deserve something special / unique (something kits don't have access to) and they should be the allrounders of the class. Making the kits unable to cast spells will fix this in a nice way. Furthermore doing so will leave some scope for kit-improvements.

 

Divine Health & Divine Grace

I agree with you that Divine Health and Divine Grace are appropiate additions.

 

Lay on Hands & Mercy

I'd personally add at least one more use of Lay on Hands (e.g. at 10th lvl), and perhaps allow more uses via HLAs. Once per day isn't enough to make it matter (especially at mid-high lvls), and more uses also makes it a more defining class feature imo. Pathfinder Paladin added an interesting take on this ability, allowing players to improve LoH with various effects at higher levels. For example we could have a 6th level Paladin use Lay on Hands to cure disease (deprecating the separate Cure Disease ability which AD&D and 3E paladins get at 6th lvl), and then cure blindness/deafness to at xth lvl, while Paladin's kits may use different effects.

The extra use of Lay on Hands convinces me, but I'd move it to mid level (there is nothing beyond lvl 10). Pathfinder's Mercy is indeed a pretty cool concept to improve the underused LoH ability. If you ever plan to implement something in this direction, I'd suggest to overthink the drawbacks of some kits. Imo Undead-Hunters should be able to cure the undead related conditions and an improved LoH would be the perfect way to do so. Even more if you decide to restrict kits from casting spells. After I thought more about the whole topic I came to the conclusion that this could be also a nice way to balance Inquisitors. With this concept you could safely change their Dispel Magic in a way that it only effect evil creatures and bake the evil magic dispel for party members into LoH. Extra uses of LoH via HLAs would then complete the big picture.

 

Divine Bond

we obviously cannot implement PnP special mount. I kinda like Pathfinder's idea of making the Divine Bond apply to either a mount or a weapon (in the latter case the paladin can temporary grants various buffs to his bonded weapon), but I'm not 100% sure I'd use it within BG, would you? Obviously this is another concept we could use for HLAs.

This is another great concept and I agree that the biggest potential of this concept lies in HLAs. I have no doubt that it would work well for BG.

 

Auras

I thought Paladin should get an Aura, but I'm not 100% sure. AD&D paladin had an Aura of Protection, causing all evil creatures within 10' to suffer -1 penalty to attack rolls (pratically a lesser ProEvil effect), while 3E auras only grant limited effects we cannot reproduce (e.g. Aura of Courage grants +4 to saves vs. fear to allies). Perhaps it's better to use auras as HLAs and give a distinct powerful version to each paladin class, similarly to what Refinements did. What do you think?

I'd go for a "base" aura like Aura of Protection at an appropiate lvl and improved versions as HLAs (like bard songs). I already have some cool things in mind like Aura of Retribution: attacks against allies within 10 feet trigger x damage to the attacker (something like this).

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After I thought more about the whole topic I came to the conclusion that this could be also a nice way to balance Inquisitors. With this concept you could safely change their Dispel Magic in a way that it only effect evil creatures and bake the evil magic dispel for party members into LoH. Extra uses of LoH via HLAs would then complete the big picture.
We have already thought along those lines, but sadly it is not as simple. The majority of enemies are evil, and certainly most dangerous ones are. Assuming no paladin would find himself in one party with evil PCs, the evil-only restriction then turns Dispel Magic into party-friendly Remove Magic. Although we still can make it single targeted.

 

Defining what magic is evil and what's not is equally obscure, in technical terms as well.

 

 

Divine Bond

I would be much impressed if somebody can come up with a solution that doesn't require mass-patching all existing weapons and generating an equal amount of SPLs.

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Although we still can make it (Dispel Magic) single targeted.

 

I think this would be really great !

Don't have to bother about evil or non evil magic/casters, and i believe it fits the profile of an inquisitor (concentrated on a single sinner/magic user at a time)

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I agree with sanctifier on Inquisitor's dispel magic. Making it single target solves the OP issues, makes it unique, and is quite fitting as the historical inquisitor would concentrate his energies on one enemy at a time.

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General

I like what you have done so far, but I'd go a bit further and add some things at mid lvl.
Indeed, the current status is far from definitive. That being said, mid-high levels are more difficult to fill for kits, because true paladins keep getting new spells.

 

A first tentative progression table for True Paladins could look like this:

/---- True Paladin ----/

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to disease, Lay on Hands 1/day
03: Turn Undead, Aura of Protection
04: 1st lvl spells, Smite Evil 2/day
05:
06: Mercy (cure disease)
07: +1/2 apr
08: 2nd lvl spells, Smite Evil 3/day
09: Mercy (cure blindness/deafness)
10: Lay on Hands 2/day
11:
12: 3rd lvl spells, Smite Evil 4/day
13: +1/2 apr
14:
15:
16: 4th lvl spells, Smite Evil 5/day
17:

While the Inquisitor would be something like this:

/---- Inquisitor ----/

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Dispel Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to charm, Lay on Hands
03: Immunity to hold, Aura of Resolve
04: Dispel Evil 2/day, True Seeing 1/day
05:
06: Mercy (cure charm?)
07: +1/2 apr
08: Dispel Evil 3/day, True Seeing 2/day
09: Mercy (remove curses?)
10: Lay on Hands 2/day
11:
12: Dispel Evil 4/day, True Seeing 3/day
13: +1/2 apr
14:
15:
16: Dispel Evil 5/day, True Seeing 4/day
17: 

It's pretty obvious there's a lack of new entries at mid-high levels, especially for kits who don't get new spells (note that true paladins also get additional spell slots at almost all levels).

 

To fill those levels we could do various things, but I think the most probable ones are once again similar to what Pathfinder did, such as:

* improving Auras (e.g. we could have paladins get the aura at 11th instead of AD&D 1st or 3E's 3rd - and then add small upgrades at 14th and 17th lvl)

* more uses of Lay on Hands, and more Mercy upgrades (if we can find enough effects for all kits)

* scale kit's abilities (e.g. replace TS with something similar which starts as a See Invisibility spell and gradually grows into a full TS - though I don't see much room to make it scale in more than a couple of steps)

 

Short story, there's still much to discuss here, I only started to post my first thoughts because they were on my KR temp folder for so long they were getting dusty, and having a global view of all warrior classes could be useful for the much more impending fighter classes.

 

True Paladins deserve something special / unique (something kits don't have access to) and they should be the allrounders of the class. Making the kits unable to cast spells will fix this in a nice way. Furthermore doing so will leave some scope for kit-improvements.
Exactly my thought.

 

Lay on Hands & Mercy

The extra use of Lay on Hands convinces me, but I'd move it to mid level (there is nothing beyond lvl 10). Pathfinder's Mercy is indeed a pretty cool concept to improve the underused LoH ability. If you ever plan to implement something in this direction, I'd suggest to overthink the drawbacks of some kits. Imo Undead-Hunters should be able to cure the undead related conditions and an improved LoH would be the perfect way to do so. Even more if you decide to restrict kits from casting spells.
Well, you you take a look at the first post's notes I already thought about that. For example UH's LoH could cure paralysis and level drain effects.

 

Divine Bond

I would be much impressed if somebody can come up with a solution that doesn't require mass-patching all existing weapons and generating an equal amount of SPLs.
Well, I had in mind something much more simple, such as adding on hit effects via EFF files (e.g. an Undea Hunter could temporary add the Disruptive effect to his weapon, an Inquisitor may add the Banishing effect, etc.). There's no need to complicate our life to make an ability which grants actual enchantment lvl to any weapon imo.

 

Inquisitor's Dispel

It seems like most of you (if not all) consider making it single target a must-have to balance its raw power, and I'm really fine with it.

 

I'd probably still make it affect only evil targets (I consider it the replacement of paladin's Smite Evil), unless we're fine with this 1st lvl ability overlap and outshine an eventual improved LoH (which btw should work as a sort of Break Enchantment for the Inquisitor imo). In theory I could be fine about not giving back LoH, but it seems a good way to fill Inquisitor's empty progression table (especially if we make it improve with levels). Furthermore using a "party-friendly" Break Enchantment-like LoH would allow the Inquisitor to cure hostile effects without also removing dispellable buffs.

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Looking at the previous post it seems like very little has changed since the last time I worked on Paladins. Anyway I want to take advantage of the resurrected interest in this mod and see if I can get some help from kreso, kalindor and other players on them too. :)

 

First of all, you might want to take a look at the first post here because I have hugely expanded and updated it. It provides "spoilers" on what I want to do with all Paladin kits, but for now I want to concentrate first on the True Paladin, to define a template which all other kits will use as a base.

 

True Paladin

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to disease, Lay on Hands 1/day
03: Turn Undead
04: 1st lvl spells, Smite Evil 2/day
05:
06: Mercy (cure disease)?
07: +1/2 apr
08: 2nd lvl spells, Smite Evil 3/day
09: Mercy (cure blindness/deafness or poison)?
10: Lay on Hands 2/day?
11: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 to hit)
12: 3rd lvl spells, Smite Evil 4/day
13: +1/2 apr
14: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 dmg)
15:
16: 4th lvl spells, Smite Evil 5/day
17: Aura of Protection (allies get +1 to all saves)

 

Most of what I've done or want to do is already fully documented in the first post, thus I want to point out only what I'm still uncertain of.

 

Smite Evil

I think it should upgrade with Paladin levels to be ok at low levels and still useful later on. This also allow us to give different upgrades to other kits. Assuming we agree on this, is it better to make it upgrade every 4 levels (when you get a new use) or "use" this opportunity to make a big upgrade at xth level (e.g. 10th level)?

 

Lay on Hands

At which level would you make it start? How many uses should it get? What about its upgrades?

 

Aura of Protection

I just finished to type this in the first topic: "I was thinking to give each kit a different aura, but finding 4 auras and 12 upgrades is an impossible task. Perhaps it's better to give a single distinct powerful aura to each paladin class via HLA, and keep the standard Aura of Protection the same for all of them. What do you think?". I'm also open to discuss the current implementation (-1 thac0/dmg to evil opponents, +1 to all saves for allies) in case anyone has a better idea.

 

Immunity to fear

I wanted to discuss this once and for all. Since 3E every single incarnation of the paladin has been made immune to fear. What should I do about it? It obviously makes sense, but it might also slightly step over Cavalier's uniqueness, though the latter could still offer more by expanding such immunity to the whole party.

 

Otoh, with KR's Paladin getting 1st level spells at 4th level it might not be a big deal considering they will be able to use Resist Fear, and even without it they have extremely good saves. It's more a conceptual thing rather than a balancing one.

 

15th level

This level will probably be filled by an early HLA as I did for fighters.

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Smite Evil

I think it should upgrade with Paladin levels to be ok at low levels and still useful later on. This also allow us to give different upgrades to other kits. Assuming we agree on this, is it better to make it upgrade every 4 levels (when you get a new use) or "use" this opportunity to make a big upgrade at xth level (e.g. 10th level)?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by different upgrades, do you plan to add a special effect (e.g. like blindness for example) in addition to magic damages? anyway i'd vote for an upgrade every 4 level, if only to better calibrate the additional magic damages

 

Lay on Hands

At which level would you make it start? How many uses should it get? What about its upgrades?

 

I think three uses are fine, two uses make this feature feel unimportant imho, and this is an iconic paladin class feature, while four will probably be too much. The 2° level is fine to get the first use, but i'm not sure about the mercy feature, i'll think about it.

 

Aura of Protection

I just finished to type this in the first topic: "I was thinking to give each kit a different aura, but finding 4 auras and 12 upgrades is an impossible task. Perhaps it's better to give a single distinct powerful aura to each paladin class via HLA, and keep the standard Aura of Protection the same for all of them. What do you think?". I'm also open to discuss the current implementation (-1 thac0/dmg to evil opponents, +1 to all saves for allies) in case anyone has a better idea.

 

Is it possible to give +1 to saves agaisnt spells/effects used by evil creatures? otherwise this class feature seems fine to me, i agree on keeping this feature standard to all paladins kits until they gains hlas, 4 auras and 12 upgrades is a huge amount of work, and i'm not sure it is worth it (is not the aura that is important to differentiate the various kits imho)

 

Immunity to fear

I wanted to discuss this once and for all. Since 3E every single incarnation of the paladin has been made immune to fear. What should I do about it? It obviously makes sense, but it might also slightly step over Cavalier's uniqueness, though the latter could still offer more by expanding such immunity to the whole party.

 

As a 3rd edition player, i'll give the immunity to fear to all paladins without problems, maybe we could substitute this feature with something else for the inquisitor and the undead hunter kits

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Ok. Some toughts of mine abot this:

 

 

True Paladin

01: +2 bonus to all saves, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
02: Immunity to disease, Lay on Hands 1/day
03: Turn Undead
04: 1st lvl spells, Smite Evil 2/day
05:
06: Mercy (cure disease)?
07: +1/2 apr
08: 2nd lvl spells, Smite Evil 3/day
09: Mercy (cure blindness/deafness or poison)?
10: Lay on Hands 2/day?
11: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 to hit)
12: 3rd lvl spells, Smite Evil 4/day
13: +1/2 apr
14: Aura of Protection (evil opponents get -1 dmg)
15:
16: 4th lvl spells, Smite Evil 5/day
17: Aura of Protection (allies get +1 to all saves)

 

 

 

Smite Evil

I think it should upgrade with Paladin levels to be ok at low levels and still useful later on. This also allow us to give different upgrades to other kits. Assuming we agree on this, is it better to make it upgrade every 4 levels (when you get a new use) or "use" this opportunity to make a big upgrade at xth level (e.g. 10th level)?

I like the "upgrade every 4 levels" idea better. Less confusion, less lines needed for description.

 

Lay on Hands

At which level would you make it start? How many uses should it get? What about its upgrades?

Level 5, 10, 19 sounds good to me. Perhaps adding a HLA to make it more poweful (1 more use per day, for example)

 

Aura of Protection

I just finished to type this in the first topic: "I was thinking to give each kit a different aura, but finding 4 auras and 12 upgrades is an impossible task. Perhaps it's better to give a single distinct powerful aura to each paladin class via HLA, and keep the standard Aura of Protection the same for all of them. What do you think?". I'm also open to discuss the current implementation (-1 thac0/dmg to evil opponents, +1 to all saves for allies) in case anyone has a better idea.

I like this unique HLA suggestion very much. As for the current version, I'd keep it for True Paladin only. At least for now, testing may show better. Somehow I find them (on paper at least) bit behind Kits. Perhaps a bit improved? A paladin should have stronger aura than True Fighter.

 

Immunity to fear

I wanted to discuss this once and for all. Since 3E every single incarnation of the paladin has been made immune to fear. What should I do about it? It obviously makes sense, but it might also slightly step over Cavalier's uniqueness, though the latter could still offer more by expanding such immunity to the whole party.

I fail to see just how a Holy Warrior can ever run in fear. I vote yes for all kits and true class. Maybe not UH. He should be a bit more "special".

 

It's more a conceptual thing rather than a balancing one.

True.

 

15th level

This level will probably be filled by an early HLA as I did for fighters.

Just no Devas yet ;)

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