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Critical hit aversion


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#16 kreso

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:41 PM

If Full Plate offered critical aversion and Plate didn't (assuming that the only way to get immunity is Full Plate), no one would ever consider Plate anyway.

Maybe something along these lines - give immunity to criticals to helmets which don't give any other immunity effect (i.e Balduran, Defense, Rock, etc.) and leave those such as Charm protection, the one with Blindness/Deafness immunity etc. w/o such feature. 

I'd still extend it to some armors and similar.



#17 yarpen

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:28 PM

Do you want to tell me anyone considerds Plate Mail now with 2 AC difference?



#18 Demivrgvs

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:19 PM

What about my old suggestions - to make Full Plate Mail loose the +2 AC over Plate Mail, but provide immunity to Critical Hits (and even maybe Backstab)?

I really really prefer those two immunities to not be so "mainstream". It cheapens their potential value as unique feature of certain items if 90% of warriors and clerics can easily get those immunities with any kind of heavy armor. The point of this component actually was the opposite, to re-introduce criticals as something to fear, while giving us one more valuable feature to increase item variety.
 

Do you want to tell me anyone considerds Plate Mail now with 2 AC difference?

Within IR the increased AC comes at a cost because Full Plate has higher encumberance (DEX penalty alone can potentially reduce the AC difference by 1, and lately we also introduced Attack Speed Factor into the mix). I admit that generally Full Plate is still objectively superior, but isn't that supposed to happen?

Also note that Full Plate is way more hard to acquire in all his versions compared to normal Plate Mail, be it non-magical, magical or unique (e.g. unless you buy the incredibly expensive Balduran's one, only a Paladin protagonist can get a unique magical full plate before the Underdark).

#19 kreso

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 12:18 AM

Do you want to tell me anyone considerds Plate Mail now with 2 AC difference?

I think one has to. In BG1, you won't exactly find Full Plates wherever you go, you can buy only one from the start. In BG2, there are fairly outstanding Plate Mails (Red Dragon armor, Delver's plate is exellent against mages, especially liches with ADHWs, even in ToB you get one with Free Action which is possibly the best defensive property of any item since it makes you immune to a lot of stuff).

Viconia and Jaheira are two notable characters which, for the most part of the game can't even wear Full Plate. Mazzy benefits from Plates much more than Full Plate (more dex bonus + a solid AC).



#20 subtledoctor

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

Reports seem to be that Revised Crit Aversion can be a... jarring change. I very much like the idea of making less about "do you have a helmet on?" but have you considered, on the EEs at least, using opcode 340 to just tone down the effects of crits? Say, patch every melee weapon to apply an equipping effect so that crits cause an extra d4 or d6 damage (maybe increasing with level).

Downside: this would ruin the fun of crit + backstab craziness. But the point would be better game balance: if crits are way more common, now they will be less earth-shattering and instead just nice occasional bonuses.

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#21 kreso

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 10:42 AM

Reports seem to be that Revised Crit Aversion can be a... jarring change. I very much like the idea of making less about "do you have a helmet on?" but have you considered, on the EEs at least, using opcode 340 to just tone down the effects of crits? Say, patch every melee weapon to apply an equipping effect so that crits cause an extra d4 or d6 damage (maybe increasing with level).

Downside: this would ruin the fun of crit + backstab craziness. But the point would be better game balance: if crits are way more common, now they will be less earth-shattering and instead just nice occasional bonuses.

Imo, there are three instances in the game where this is really jarring.

One, geting to level 3-4 while in BG1. To have a random gnoll (with SCS, they get pips in 2-handed style so have 10% crit chance) kill you with a single hit is very ugly.

Two, non-stoneskined low HP character (a la Vicionia) having a ranged weapon equiped is likely to be chunked on a critical backstab.

Three, ToB Drow using Critical strike HLA. 

 

Ad.2) and Ad.3) can be worked around with (give some item with critical hit immunity to Viconia and your tanks);

Ad.1) leaves much to be desired - apart from depending on a lot of ranged combat going in melee vs gnolls is a fight you're eventually gonna loose.

 

What I find very annoying with this is that monsters which can't bypass a certain AC (apart on crit) do freakin double damage *when* they finally hit you, and they can't hit you otherwise.

If one could remove the nonsensical double damage from crit (or say, allow it for certain weapon styles or "keen" weapons) that'd be grand. Or to have a save vs it allowed. Or, to roll to "confirm" the critical hit (as in PnP).

Maybe some stuff could be made on EEs with that STAT opcode about it, I haven't given it much tought however. High DEX = crit immunity? Meh...

 

Iirc, Demi mentioned a "less hardcore" version of this component - helmets would give immunity, but Ioun stones wouldn't. EEs picked up on his idea apperantly.

My main gripe vs this is that this affects only PCs - there are very, very few enemies (Sendai might be the only one) using Ioun stones. So now you got monks/swashbucklers, otherwise legit frontliners, dying in two-three lucky hits. :( Not my idea of fun, in any case scenario.



#22 subtledoctor

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 11:52 AM

If one could remove the nonsensical double damage from crit (or say, allow it for certain weapon styles or "keen" weapons) that'd be grand.


Right, that's basically what I'm suggesting. Instead of automatic double damage, on EE you can make crits do *extra* damage... how much, is under your control.

You could apply it to all weapons, filtering by type to match the extra crit damage to the weapon's base damage. Plus, you can do interesting things since crit damage is now defined by a .spl file. You could have the Missile Attractor armor make you immune to slashing and crushing crits, but vulnerable to missile and piercing crits. Or whatever.

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#23 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:06 PM

Isn't there a mod currently active at g3 that replaces double damage with unique effects differing by weapon type?



#24 kreso

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 11:34 PM

Isn't there a mod currently active at g3 that replaces double damage with unique effects differing by weapon type?

there is. However, it works so that having a good enough AC is equal to PfMW..with IR, it much easier to obtain godlike AC values than in vanilla game. I remember playing through Ascension with -22 permanent, undispellable AC class. Even Fallen Solars missed on a regular basis with pips in sword&shield style.

 

The "perfect" solution (for me, at least) would be:

1) remove the double damage from a critical hit, even with no helmet equipped 

2) when a critical hit is scored, extra effects are added, be it damage or some debilitating effect

3) IR items which grant protection from critical hits make you immmune to these extra effects

 

2) and 3) are easy; at least on EE.

1) I don't know if can be made. I wonder if protection from criticals can be applied via .spl file...

 

Another option would be to  apply a permanent -1 to critical chance to everyone; so that; for example:

- a character with a pip in two-handed and/or single weapon style can crit on a roll of 20, but not 19

- dual-wielder or sword + shield guy cannot

 

This would work on both engines and is trivial to do. Net result - BG1 gnolls are slightly less  deadly while Ankhegs/Ghouls/Carrion Crawlers/99% of archer enemies/Gibberlings etc. are harmless, provided you got a full plate on you.



#25 subtledoctor

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:01 AM

The "perfect" solution (for me, at least) would be:
1) remove the double damage from a critical hit, even with no helmet equipped 
2) when a critical hit is scored, extra effects are added, be it damage or some debilitating effect
3) IR items which grant protection from critical hits make you immmune to these extra effects
 
2) and 3) are easy; at least on EE.
1) I don't know if can be made. I wonder if protection from criticals can be applied via .spl file...

It can be - I've used it as a kit ability.

But, doesn't the "replace critical effect" EE opcode remove the double damage and use another effect instead? Or does it keep both effects? If the former, then 1) is easy too.

And there could still be choice. IR could do something conservative by default; and other mods could override it and use whatever effects they want.
 

Another option would be to  apply a permanent -1 to critical chance to everyone; so that; for example:
- a character with a pip in two-handed and/or single weapon style can crit on a roll of 20, but not 19
- dual-wielder or sword + shield guy cannot
 
This would work on both engines and is trivial to do. Net result - BG1 gnolls are slightly less  deadly while Ankhegs/Ghouls/Carrion Crawlers/99% of archer enemies/Gibberlings etc. are harmless, provided you got a full plate on you.

That's what I do. No crits for anyone, but multiple ways to increase the crit chance above zero: pips in 2-handed style, having high INT, or as a learnable feat for fighters and thieves. (Or, possibly, all three.) And any of those can be applied to the AI as well. But I still think toning it down from double damage is a good idea.

Edited by subtledoctor, 05 March 2017 - 08:02 AM.

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#26 kreso

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 10:10 AM

But, doesn't the "replace critical effect" EE opcode remove the double damage and use another effect instead? Or does it keep both effects? If the former, then 1) is easy too.

there is this opcode? I tought EE got "critical hit effect" opcode, not "replace critical effect". Critical hit effect doesn't remove double damage afaik.



#27 subtledoctor

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 10:19 AM


But, doesn't the "replace critical effect" EE opcode remove the double damage and use another effect instead? Or does it keep both effects? If the former, then 1) is easy too.

there is this opcode? I tought EE got "critical hit effect" opcode, not "replace critical effect". Critical hit effect doesn't remove double damage afaik.

 

The new beta-y IESDP (I think argent77 is maintaining it?) calls opcode 341 "change critical hit effect." That sounds like it replaces the vanilla effect rather than adding on to it.  But when I posted a thread on the Beamdog forums seeking clarification, nobody answered.  And I haven't had time to do any kind of testing.

 

https://iesdp.bgforg...pcodes/bgee.htm


Edited by subtledoctor, 05 March 2017 - 10:21 AM.

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#28 kreso

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 12:43 PM

 

The new beta-y IESDP (I think argent77 is maintaining it?) calls opcode 341 "change critical hit effect." That sounds like it replaces the vanilla effect rather than adding on to it.  But when I posted a thread on the Beamdog forums seeking clarification, nobody answered.  And I haven't had time to do any kind of testing.

Well, I did test it, no go. 341 should be named "add critical hit effect", 'cause that's what it does. It doesn't replace double damage on non-protected characters.

As a point of note - this opcode works with Critical Strike HLA; so there's definitely a lot of cheese potential here.



#29 subtledoctor

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

Ah. So the best hope is that the "critical hit immunity" opcode stops the double damage but does not stop 341 effects. Which I suppose is possible... but probably unlikely.

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#30 kreso

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 09:39 PM

Critical hit immunity prevents 341 effects. Meh...





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