Should SCS use BG2 spells?

[Miloch]

Enemies not using BG2 spells is a feature, not a bug, I'm afraid - part of the SCS design philosophy is to keep to BG1 resources.

Having said that, how difficult would it be to introduce an optional subcomponent to something like Smarter Mages that allows them to cast BG2 spells if they are available? I'm only asking in theoretical terms because I'm working on something similar. For example, I reintroduce some scrolls with those spells into the game as treasure on some of the tougher (higher level) mages. So they should be able to cast those spells too, and I want to do it in such a way that I'm not stepping all over mods like SCS or existing scripts. (Feel free to move this discussion out of Known Bugs if you want ).

[Strontium Dog]

Enemies not using BG2 spells is a feature, not a bug, I'm afraid - part of the SCS design philosophy is to keep to BG1 resources.

Having said that, how difficult would it be to introduce an optional subcomponent to something like Smarter Mages that allows them to cast BG2 spells if they are available? I'm only asking in theoretical terms because I'm working on something similar. For example, I reintroduce some scrolls with those spells into the game as treasure on some of the tougher (higher level) mages. So they should be able to cast those spells too, and I want to do it in such a way that I'm not stepping all over mods like SCS or existing scripts. (Feel free to move this discussion out of Known Bugs if you want ).

 

That would be fantastic. I've always felt that if the game gives me access to spells/abilities etc. that I'm obliged to use them. Making the mages more effective with BG2-type spells would lead to a more challenging game. Besides almost all those who've played BG1Tutu have played the original Baldur's Gate:Tales of the Sword Coast ad nauseam, so updating to BG2 would create more challenges.

 

(I might quibble about the smarter-mages component, but I must admit some of the other SCs elements are amazing and have long needed to be added. I particularly liked the "Faster Bears" component - in previous games, bears were just a source of dead-easy Xp to me, now they actually present a challenge).

[coaster]

Enemies not using BG2 spells is a feature, not a bug, I'm afraid - part of the SCS design philosophy is to keep to BG1 resources.

 

Is this true of clerics/druids as well as mages? I'm sure in Larswood the two druid guys cast Ironskins. Not that I mind - it made for a more fun encounter

[Miloch]

Is this true of clerics/druids as well as mages? I'm sure in Larswood the two druid guys cast Ironskins.

The SCS readme says:

In accordance with the basic design philosophy of this mod, priests will basically confine themselves to BG spells - no Unholy Blights or Righteous Magics. However, this has been bent slightly in this component to allow druids use of Iron Skins and priests use of Physical Mirror - these spells are high enough level that the player usually won't have access to them anyway, and without some sort of basic defence BG priests and druids (who are often encountered alone) usually get slaughtered.

Which is true, since I've heard others say the BG1 druids are complete wusses. Though even with the defensive spells, they might be wimpy attackers - why not give them Insect Plague or something while you're at it too?

 

(Hey, the fact we're discussing enhancements and not bugs in this thread is a good thing, right? Means the mod is fairly stable. )

[DavidW]

Split from "Known Bugs"

 

Having said that, how difficult would it be to introduce an optional subcomponent to something like Smarter Mages that allows them to cast BG2 spells if they are available?

 

It's actually harder than it looks. For each spell you'd have to write a medium-sized block saying how to use it, and then insert that block into the mage/priest script. And inserting script blocks isn't trivial because (unlike dialog files) script files aren't neatly indexed. It would probably end up being easier just to write an entirely new script. (And even with the new optimisations, I'm a bit nervous about adding too much to a 12,000 line script!)

 

Even then, that's only a half-hearted fix. SCS does a lot of rearranging of enemy spellbooks at script level. If wizards had access to BG2 spells it would be foolish of them not to take more Stoneskins, Minute Meteors and Remove Magics. And that's without getting on to Sequencers and Contingencies. So to do it properly means essentially redoing the whole Smarter Mages and Smarter Priests components, and they're comfortably the most complicated components in SCS.

 

I've always felt that if the game gives me access to spells/abilities etc. that I'm obliged to use them. Making the mages more effective with BG2-type spells would lead to a more challenging game.

 

I guess the point here is that you can make the game more challenging either by letting the enemy use BG2 spells or by not using them yourself. I'm very sympathetic to the view that if a resource (spell or whatever) is available in game then it breaks suspension of disbelief not to use it. But if you think what is available in-game:

 

- Wizard spells at character creation: okay, here you just have to be good and not pick any of the new ones.

- Wizard spells in Xan's, Edwin's (etc) spell books: BG1 only

- Wizard scrolls found in-game: BG1 only

 

- Priest spells: this is optional. Tutufix gives you the choice of going with BG1 spells only or with BG1 and BG2 spells.

- Priest scrolls: BG1 only

 

- Sorceror spells: this is the exception, if you play a sorceror it's hard to motivate not letting yourself use BG2 spells. (Especially if you plan to take the sorceror into BG2 - that's why I decided not to code up a sorceror-restricting SCS component).

 

So it's pretty straightforward to play a BG1-spells-only game. In fact, playing a properly BG2-spells-based game would require quite a bit of modding - as well as enemy spells, you probably ought to distribute BG2 spells through the stores, monsters and treasure hordes.

 

I'm not remotely trying to force people to play without BG2 resources - play the game however you like. But it's very natural and easy to do.

[Miloch]

Ok, well that sounds more difficult than it's worth. But you do "allow druids use of Iron Skins and priests use of Physical Mirror." How tough was that? And if you're already doing it, how tough would it be to give druids something like Insect Plague in addition? I would observe that this involves the wimpiest casters in the game (druids) and the smaller of the two components - Smarter Priests as opposed to Smarter Mages, though really, I suppose you could even spin off a 'Smarter Druids' component if you wanted.

 

I'd also observe that only a handful of the higher level opponents should have this kind of spell access. I could probably even point out which ones (see my thread on Bioware for examples).

 

How does BGT SCS handle this, being as how BGT mages should be casting the BG2 spells (the ones later in the game anyhow)?

[DavidW]

The point is: it's no harder to write a script that includes some or all BG2 spells than one that includes none of them. But having written the scripts, it's lots of work to change them to include spells that aren't already being used.

 

As for Insect Plague in particular, I'd consider it in principle, but I haven't as yet had reports that the SCS druids are still wimpy attackers, and I'd only want to break my no-BG2-resources rule if there was a concrete reason. (I'm also unsure that Insect Plague is a better choice than Flame Strike or Animal Summoning II against 5th-level opponents, which is probably the average party level in the Cloakwood.

 

How does BGT SCS handle this, being as how BGT mages should be casting the BG2 spells (the ones later in the game anyhow)?

 

It doesn't (unless the SCSBGT translators have made changes I'm not aware of, which I doubt). SCSBGT is a straight translation of SCS, there's no new content.

[pro5]

We certainly didn't add any new scripting for BG2 spells. I don't offhand remember if BGT by default even uses them in current incarnation.

[Miloch]

We certainly didn't add any new scripting for BG2 spells. I don't offhand remember if BGT by default even uses them in current incarnation.

Not even in the BG2 part of it? That would be a bit bizarre.

 

Perhaps it would be better to just customise the individual scripts of those few spellcasters that should have higher level spells, rather than adding to something like magecore.baf. I'm already doing some of that for Dudleyfix etc. anyhow.

[pro5]

Not even in the BG2 part of it? That would be a bit bizarre.

BGT doesn't do anything to BG2, except add continuity to some joinable NPCs who were in BG1, plus importing several items.

 

I meant that BGT spellcasters don't use those spells in their default scripts. Although as I recall, you could buy Stoneskin in Sorcerous Sundries.

[Grand_Dracolich]

I'm a bit nervous about adding too much to a 12,000 line script.

 

Copy the current one and edit that. I know, it's never that simple, is it?

 

And 12,000 lines? My respect for this mod just skyrocketed (and it was high to begin with).