Jump to content

Photo

Sword Coast Stratagems v31 Now Available


85 replies to this topic

#76 DavidW

DavidW
  • Gibberlings
  • 4670 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 October 2018 - 07:30 PM

I'm pretty sure Improved Shapeshifting works just fine in the EEs.

The bug the component was originally designed to get around has been fixed, but some players like it on its own merits, not just to get around that bug.

For about the millionth time (and you and I personally have had this conversation *at least* once before), this component was never designed to get around any bug. It's designed to improve the action economy of shapeshifting creatures. The readme is totally explicit about this. I have no idea where this "fix a bug" thing comes from, but it is extremely irritating to have to keep re-squashing it.
 

[EDIT: here is a link to the previous conversation: http://gibberlings3....ic=27681&page=2 ]
 

(I still say the name should be changed though - "Improved Shapeshifting" comes across as both uninformative and somewhat arrogant, which is a bad combination.



It's 'improved' in the same sense that 'improved fiends' are improved; that is: shapeshifting is more powerful with it than without it. That's standard usage in SCS, and is mostly inherited from Tactics ('improved' for game-mechanical advantages, 'smarter' for better scripting) though I appreciate I have had a near-monopoly on AI for ages so appeals to standard AI-mod usage are a bit circular by now. I agree that it's a bit uninformative, but I can't readily think of a more-informative description that's not prohibitively long. Ultimately, these descriptors are just an invitation for people to check the readme (and as I have said for years, if you don't read the readme I'm not interested in supporting you).
 
 

I also think it goes a bit too far - there dould be some kind of minor opportunity cost for shapeshifting, even if it's only a second or so. But that's only my subjective preference.)



This is defensible as a matter of theory, but I've done playthroughs with the component and it doesn't seem to be unbalanced. I am experimenting in v32 with a very short pause for NPC users, following an earlier conversation we had about it, but it's for cosmetic reasons rather than tactical ones.

Edited by DavidW, 31 October 2018 - 07:36 PM.


#77 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2854 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:35 AM

Oh right that was Tweaks' rationale. I think the confusion stems from the fact that they both adopt the same mechanism to address different aims, and they both sound very similar ("improved shapeshifting," and "rebalanced shapeshifter" sound reasonably interchangeable) even though they differ in scope.

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#78 ALIENQuake

ALIENQuake
  • Modders
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Poland

Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:44 AM

Currently we have:

 

- Tweaks Anthology "Improved shapeshifting" is  "a legacy component from Wes Weimer's Ease of Use mod"

- Refinements "Shapeshifting fix" it's apparently better version of 'Westley Weimer' component from TA without needed to equip 'Pawns' manually

- SCS "Improved Shapeshifting" is "also inspired in part by Wesley Weimer's Shapeshifter Rebalancing component"

 

I just wish to have unification/consistency between three version of 'Shapeshifting' from SCS, Refinements and "Tweaks Anthology" while all of you are active. It's a matter of:

 

- how crucial for SCS AI is to have it's own component version (to not be depend on other mod)

- how similar all those components are

 

How about merge all of the above to one component which will be inside TA and SCS/other mods could react accordingly?


Edited by ALIENQuake, 01 November 2018 - 04:47 AM.


#79 DavidW

DavidW
  • Gibberlings
  • 4670 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 November 2018 - 05:55 AM

 
How about merge all of the above to one component which will be inside TA and SCS/other mods could react accordingly?


1) TA is very often installed last. SCS smarter priests cant react to something in the future.
2) The SCS component does something radically different from the other mods youre considering, so I cant even see the prima facie case for a merger.

#80 ALIENQuake

ALIENQuake
  • Modders
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Poland

Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:36 AM

 

 
How about merge all of the above to one component which will be inside TA and SCS/other mods could react accordingly?


1) TA is very often installed last. SCS smarter priests cant react to something in the future.
2) The SCS component does something radically different from the other mods youre considering, so I cant even see the prima facie case for a merger.

 

If it's 'radically different' then merging is out of question. Still, how SCS AI will behave when TA or Refinements version will be installed later?


Edited by ALIENQuake, 01 November 2018 - 06:40 AM.


#81 DavidW

DavidW
  • Gibberlings
  • 4670 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 November 2018 - 07:04 AM

It wont make any difference. NPCs use undroppable clones of the symbolic paws; those clones wont be overwritten by another mod. (And in any case, the other components only affect the werewolf shapeshifts, whereas SCS affects all of them - so most of SCSs effect persists even with the other component present. Theyre not either/or.)

#82 CamDawg

CamDawg

    ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD

  • Gibberling Poobah
  • 9751 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 01 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

Oh right that was Tweaks' rationale. I think the confusion stems from the fact that they both adopt the same mechanism to address different aims, and they both sound very similar ("improved shapeshifting," and "rebalanced shapeshifter" sound reasonably interchangeable) even though they differ in scope.

Wes may have presented bugfixing as the rationale, but honestly it was written so that shapeshifters could keep up with Tactics. As such, 'rebalanced' is appropriate.

 

Being a legacy component the only future changes it will see are bug/compat fixes, as needed.


Why is this Hypnotoad video so popu... ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD.


#83 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2854 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:08 PM

@AL|EN you might want to deprecate the Refinements version. Tweaks and SCS are at least still being maintained; the Refinements component hasn't been touched in about 10 years and I have no plans to touch it in the future (though someone else is welcome to).

Indeed, notwithstanding that I am at least a partial caretaker of Refinements, I'm not sure I knew that component even existed... :laugh:

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#84 ALIENQuake

ALIENQuake
  • Modders
  • 630 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Poland

Posted 02 November 2018 - 01:42 AM

@subtledoctor

How I could do that? Besides, if the Tweaks Anthology Refinements "Shapeshifting fix" it's better version of 'Westley Weimer' component from TA without needed to equip 'Pawns' manually, I would like to see a replacement of the TA component to Refinements version (that doesn't mean that it should not be threaded as legacy component). 



#85 Stormfin

Stormfin
  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 06 November 2018 - 09:27 PM

Hello,

 

Suppose, hypothetically speaking, that someone has been installing the improved general ai component for a few days, getting up to the letter N in patching creatures scripts, when suddenly their house has a blackout and the computer dies...

 

Would they have to start all over again? I only ask because going through the component again, it breezed through scripts that previously bogged it down and seems to be back up to the letter N within a matter of minutes, where it slows up again.



#86 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2854 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 November 2018 - 06:21 AM

@subtledoctor
How I could do that? Besides, if the Tweaks Anthology Refinements "Shapeshifting fix" it's better version of 'Westley Weimer' component from TA without needed to equip 'Pawns' manually, I would like to see a replacement of the TA component to Refinements version (that doesn't mean that it should not be threaded as legacy component).


I don't know. You asked about deprecating/consolidating these three components, all I'm suggesting is, it probably makes sense to deprecate the one that gets the least attention and maintenance. Maybe none of them should be, but I was trying to respect your question's underlying premise ;)

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE




Reply to this topic



  


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users