Jump to content


Photo

Question/Suggestion: post-Sarevok in EET


41 replies to this topic

#1 Isewein

Isewein
  • Members
  • 21 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:44 AM

This all looks like an amazing project. I'm slightly overwhelmed. Just a small curious question: In BGT, I very much appreciated the opportunity to do TotSC adventures after Sarevok's fall, before initiating the transition to BGII. After all, this is how the expansion was originally intended to be played. It fits better balance- and storywise, too. May I suggest to you good folks to keep this option open, rather than moving on straight to this new expansion, or is there some reason against it I am unable to see?



#2 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:09 AM

This all looks like an amazing project. I'm slightly overwhelmed. Just a small curious question: In BGT, I very much appreciated the opportunity to do TotSC adventures after Sarevok's fall, before initiating the transition to BGII. After all, this is how the expansion was originally intended to be played. It fits better balance- and storywise, too. May I suggest to you good folks to keep this option open, rather than moving on straight to this new expansion, or is there some reason against it I am unable to see?

Did you play SoD already? After Sarevok's death, you clear the Undercity from his remaining followers and then start the actual SoD adventure. This is the sequence of events with the new episode inserted. Only after SoD you transit to BG2.

 

Anyway, in EET you can postpone the TotSC content until after Sarevok at your convenience. One of the features of EET is the continuous worldmap that allows you to return to any former area you have explored during later parts of the game.

 

Your wish is thus already reality with EET

 
 
 

Edited by Roxanne, 16 April 2018 - 08:09 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#3 Isewein

Isewein
  • Members
  • 21 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:57 AM

Thanks for indulging me! No, I haven't played it yet. In fact, I'm really just asking out of curiosity here - it may be long until I get around to replaying the Trilogy. But as far as I understand SoD starts its mop up operation some time after Sarevok's defeat (story-wise)? While the rest of SoD is said to be linear and thus likely leaves no opportune time for TotSC. That's why I thought it would be nice to give the option for some respite and wandering around after Sarevok's fall, then trigger the transition to SoD by talking to Belt (or whomever), as it was done in BGT. I guess he could tell you about these 'remaining followers', something like that. :)

 

PS: I should clarify I came up with this idea when doing some nostalgia reading over at the new forums... the last post in thisthread, to be precise.

 

Back with BGT, you could defeat Sarevok, and the game would not transition until you intentionally initiate a dialogue with one of the dukes. That was great because it was s perfect interlude for the TotSC content. I really wish SoD worked the same way... hmm, should probably mention this as a feature request for EET...


Edited by Isewein, 16 April 2018 - 09:10 AM.


#4 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:20 AM

I suggest it is best to play this with EET (not BGEE+SoD) to see how it will NOT fit as it was done in BGT. In BGT the interim, Global("EndofBG1","Global",1) which changed to 2 when BG2 started was the time between Sarevok's end and waking up in Irenicus Dungeon. In EET this interim is called SoD.

There is a logical *break* within SoD where you could go about and do other things, like TotSC, but it is not directly after Sarevok's end. That would break story and immersion. Just let it evolve and you will see the point where it makes sense to do some more adventuring during SoD. There is plenty of opportunity.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#5 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2445 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

I think what he's saying is, it would be nice if it could do something like BGT, where the Sarevok fight doesn't kick you into a cut-scene, but lets you leave the undercity and wander around the sword coast until you're ready to make a transition.

EET, if I'm not mistaken, boots you immediately into the start of SoD... it's only that various areas are open. So there's nothing stopping you from doing TotSC content after Sarevok; but it's still a bit weird. Am I mistaken?

I don't think EET needs to really do anything here. It should be easy enough for someone to make a mod for EET that delays the transition to SoD.

Heck, fact is, while SoD is meant to fill the gap between BG1 and BG2, there's still a gsp between BG1 and SoD. SoD hand-waves a bunch of adventures tracking down and fighting Sarevok's lieutenants. It would be cool if someone made a mod to fill this gap... :)

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#6 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:58 AM

I think what he's saying is, it would be nice if it could do something like BGT, where the Sarevok fight doesn't kick you into a cut-scene, but lets you leave the undercity and wander around the sword coast until you're ready to make a transition.

EET, if I'm not mistaken, boots you immediately into the start of SoD... it's only that various areas are open. So there's nothing stopping you from doing TotSC content after Sarevok; but it's still a bit weird. Am I mistaken?

I don't think EET needs to really do anything here. It should be easy enough for someone to make a mod for EET that delays the transition to SoD.

Heck, fact is, while SoD is meant to fill the gap between BG1 and BG2, there's still a gsp between BG1 and SoD. SoD hand-waves a bunch of adventures tracking down and fighting Sarevok's lieutenants. It would be cool if someone made a mod to fill this gap... :)

Laugh as you may...

I had this transition-within-the-transition for the early version of EET. However, after some playing the game as a continuous story, I decided to move all this stuff to the earlier parts of SoD, partly to the Korlasz dungeon and partly to the first camp areas after you leave Baldur's Gate. It made a far better flow of the story than to leave the Sarevok plot and later return to it again while you spend a long time doing something else.

 

So I speak from the experience of actually having done the thing and having experimented with some alternatives. But, yes, this is a very subjective decision.

 

What is still left from my various attempts, is a party dialogue of some NPCs after Sarevok is dead and a chance to pick up some items from the final battle, so that there is not the immediate cutscene when Sarevok falls. I put this in my Sandrah mod, but it could be made a separate component by some other mod. I am pretty sure that K4thos would not want the EET itself divert from the original BG1 to SoD transition.

 

One final argument against an additional interim between BG1 and SoD is compatibility. If such an interim would be introduced by some mod, the continuity for all the mods that take the story flow into account would be disrupted and you would have two variations instead. (BGT was different here, as it was the only transition between the parts).

 

But that is just my opinion for whatever it is worth.


Edited by Roxanne, 16 April 2018 - 10:59 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#7 jastey

jastey
  • Gibberlings
  • 7266 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:27 PM

If there would be such a "pause" between BG1 and SoD, it should be after defeating Korlasz - before the PC is woken up by Imoen in the Duchal Palace. That would make most sense, imho.

Of course, there you already have the SoD setting, with Imoen being mage apprentice etc.



#8 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:00 PM

If there would be such a "pause" between BG1 and SoD, it should be after defeating Korlasz - before the PC is woken up by Imoen in the Duchal Palace. That would make most sense, imho.

Of course, there you already have the SoD setting, with Imoen being mage apprentice etc.

You would need to transfer the complete transition between bd0120 and bd0103 to somewhere else - including party management, inventory moving, chapter transition, several cutscenes, revision of various NPC leaving after Korlasz dialogues and more. You would need to prevent a number of NPCs leaving you at this point. You need to introduce an exit from the tomb back to (possibly) the Undercity somewhere outside the Bhaal temple(?).

 

While all the above may be feasible even if much work, the thing again would be compatibility. How would you treat all the mod NPCs that may be in your party when you defeated Sarevok and followed you against Korlasz?

 

It will be an ambitious project, but will it really be an improvement?

Is it for EET or for BGEE+SoD? Or both?

 
 
 

Edited by Roxanne, 16 April 2018 - 02:01 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#9 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2445 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:03 PM

If there would be such a "pause" between BG1 and SoD, it should be after defeating Korlasz - before the PC is woken up by Imoen in the Duchal Palace. That would make most sense, imho.

 

IIRC, there is dialogue in the beginning of the Korlasz dungeon that heavily implies you have already been through a few similar dungeons rooting out Sarevok's other allies.  So, why not actually play them?

 

I figure something like:

- Stay in control of the party after the Sarevok fight, just like in BGT.

- Go back outside and maybe do the TotSC content, if you feel like it.

- At some point talk to the Duke(s), just like BGT.  You can be told "we've discovered there are three of Sarevok's minions still running around trying to cause trouble: Joe, Bob, and Korlasz.  We know the location of Joe's hideout and Bob's hideout."

- After clearing those two hideouts, you find a letter/journal/map pointing you to Korlasz' hideout.  You go to the entrance, start to descend a rope ladder... and boom, you're in SoD.

 

A mod like that would be pretty small, but a) it would be faithful to the existing transition; and b) it would give you a perfect excuse/opportunity to go at your own pace, maybe take a trip to Werewolf Island or Ice Island first, etc.


Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#10 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:39 PM

 

If there would be such a "pause" between BG1 and SoD, it should be after defeating Korlasz - before the PC is woken up by Imoen in the Duchal Palace. That would make most sense, imho.

 

IIRC, there is dialogue in the beginning of the Korlasz dungeon that heavily implies you have already been through a few similar dungeons rooting out Sarevok's other allies.  So, why not actually play them?

 

I figure something like:

- Stay in control of the party after the Sarevok fight, just like in BGT.

- Go back outside and maybe do the TotSC content, if you feel like it.

- At some point talk to the Duke(s), just like BGT.  You can be told "we've discovered there are three of Sarevok's minions still running around trying to cause trouble: Joe, Bob, and Korlasz.  We know the location of Joe's hideout and Bob's hideout."

- After clearing those two hideouts, you find a letter/journal/map pointing you to Korlasz' hideout.  You go to the entrance, start to descend a rope ladder... and boom, you're in SoD.

 

A mod like that would be pretty small, but a) it would be faithful to the existing transition; and b) it would give you a perfect excuse/opportunity to go at your own pace, maybe take a trip to Werewolf Island or Ice Island first, etc.

 

I had made this mod.

 

I developed it because my original Sandrah mod had content in the frame between Sarevok's death and talking to Belt in the BGT version. So you could leave the Sarevok temple again, go back into BG1 and play my stuff but of course also all the other things like TotSC and then report back to the Dukes and they would send you after Korlasz. On your second journey to Undercity there were some new opponents and a new entry among the ruins in the south that led to Korlasz tomb.

 

Again, I decided to trash that mod and put my interim content into SoD instead. The reason was mainly compatibility. All other mods and NPCs would follow the original sequence and the diversion felt a bit like hijacking the game.

 

(Did you play that version? Your description is pretty exact, only that Bob was Talos in my case, and Joe was Tamoko.)


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#11 Isewein

Isewein
  • Members
  • 21 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:22 AM

Thanks subtledoctor, that's pretty much exactly what I meant to say.

 

I understand Roxanne's concerns for compatibility. That's why it would be the best compromise to leave such an interlude right after Sarevok's defeat. Seems to me as if it couldn't really break any mods there, as long as the transition proper were kept the same. A little change of pace between all the heavy plots would be appreciated by many, I'm sure. Of course a real quest mod as you describe sounds perfect, but in lieu of someone willing to code this it would be great if at least the basic option to delay the transition (and move it to one of the Dukes) could be included in EET.


Edited by Isewein, 17 April 2018 - 12:26 AM.


#12 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:55 AM

Thanks subtledoctor, that's pretty much exactly what I meant to say.

 

I understand Roxanne's concerns for compatibility. That's why it would be the best compromise to leave such an interlude right after Sarevok's defeat. Seems to me as if it couldn't really break any mods there, as long as the transition proper were kept the same. A little change of pace between all the heavy plots would be appreciated by many, I'm sure. Of course a real quest mod as you describe sounds perfect, but in lieu of someone willing to code this it would be great if at least the basic option to delay the transition (and move it to one of the Dukes) could be included in EET.

The main issue for EET is compatibility, something that may not apply to BGEE+SoD.

EET has continuous NPCs.

 

Since the transition from BG1 to SoD is NOT a chapter increment (Chapter 7 of the game is from leaving Candlekeep Catacombs until you finish Korlasz Tomb). This excludes Chapter checks to determine whether you finished BG1 and are in SoD.

 

Therefore most mods (and mods adding to vanilla NPC) use a Global that was already used in the classic games and in BGT Global("EndOfBG1,""Global",X).

X can be 0 (BG1) 1 (SoD or) 2 (BG2)

Events that advance it are Sarevok's Death 0>1 and Entering Irenicus Dungeon 1>2.

 

Thus, defeating Sarevok but returning again to the *BG1 world* prior to Chapter 8, is a state that would require additional checks in many scripts and dialogues. You will otherwise have NPCs and triggers referring to events and conditions that not yet happened.

The current implementation allows many mods to be available for classic and EE games - breaking that up is possible but would require all affected mods to accept your terms...


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#13 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2445 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:32 AM

 

I figure something like:
- Stay in control of the party after the Sarevok fight, just like in BGT.
- Go back outside and maybe do the TotSC content, if you feel like it.
- At some point talk to the Duke(s), just like BGT. You can be told "we've discovered there are three of Sarevok's minions still running around trying to cause trouble: Joe, Bob, and Korlasz. We know the location of Joe's hideout and Bob's hideout."
- After clearing those two hideouts, you find a letter/journal/map pointing you to Korlasz' hideout. You go to the entrance, start to descend a rope ladder... and boom, you're in SoD.

A mod like that would be pretty small, but a) it would be faithful to the existing transition; and b) it would give you a perfect excuse/opportunity to go at your own pace, maybe take a trip to Werewolf Island or Ice Island first, etc.

I had made this mod.

I developed it because my original Sandrah mod had content in the frame between Sarevok's death and talking to Belt in the BGT version. So you could leave the Sarevok temple again, go back into BG1 and play my stuff but of course also all the other things like TotSC and then report back to the Dukes and they would send you after Korlasz. On your second journey to Undercity there were some new opponents and a new entry among the ruins in the south that led to Korlasz tomb.

Again, I decided to trash that mod and put my interim content into SoD instead. The reason was mainly compatibility. All other mods and NPCs would follow the original sequence and the diversion felt a bit like hijacking the game.

(Did you play that version? Your description is pretty exact, only that Bob was Talos in my case, and Joe was Tamoko.)

 


You made content that was part of a huge mod that spans the entire game... naturally that would have compatibility issues with other mods.

The solution to me seems to be to just divorce it from a major campaign like the Sandrah mod. You can add the Talos and Tamoko hideouts, someone else could add hideouts for Bob and Joe, or a temple of Cyric, whatever. As long as they both occupy the same section, a player could use either one and still carry on into SoD and play the rest of the Sandrah mod.
 

Since the transition from BG1 to SoD is NOT a chapter increment (Chapter 7 of the game is from leaving Candlekeep Catacombs until you finish Korlasz Tomb).

Therefore most mods (and mods adding to vanilla NPC) use a Global that was already used in the classic games and in BGT Global("EndOfBG1,""Global",X).
X can be 0 (BG1) 1 (SoD or) 2 (BG2)
Events that advance it are Sarevok's Death 0>1 and Entering Irenicus Dungeon 1>2.
 
Thus, defeating Sarevok but returning again to the *BG1 world* prior to Chapter 8, is a state that would require additional checks in many scripts and dialogues. You will otherwise have NPCs and triggers referring to events and conditions that not yet happened.


Can't you simply rmeove the script action incrementing the "EndOfBG1" global from the end of the Sarevok fight, and add it to the conversation with the Dukes or whatever trigger you want to enable the entry to Korlasz' tomb?  So you defeat Sarevok, leave the undercity, and you are still considered to be within BG1.  Now you can go to Durlag's Tower, and Werewolf Island, maybe Bone Hill or whatever.

 

At its most basic, that's all you have to do: eliminate that script action, and add a conversation somewhere that triggers that script action and shoots you to Korlasz' tomb.  Just give the player a tiny bit more agency to decide when they want that transition to happen.

 

THEN, separately, modders could come in a fill this new section of the game with more stuff, if they want to.  Add the Talos/Tamoko hideouts.  Add events or conversations that foreshadow the conflict stirred up by Caelar, so the beginning of SoD isn't such a sudden and jarring change in the conditions in the city.  Could do all sorts of stuff...


Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE


#14 Roxanne

Roxanne

    Modder

  • Modders
  • 2041 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Auckland, NZ

Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:57 AM

I think I see a possibility to do that. A delay when you pick up Sarevok's Sword of Chaos.

It will trigger a minimod in which you report back to the Dukes about Sarevok's defeat.

You get ambushed and the sword gets stolen (fits into SoD start scene).

You get order to seek the renaining Sarevok followers and you want to have YOUR sword. When you go to the Undercity temple the second time, after you talked to the dukes and lost the sword, the transition starts.

When you talk to the dukes, Imoen (if there) will leave the party to make this fit with her SoD role.

Now you will have all the time you want to fill the space between Sarevok's death and going after the sword thieves with whatever leftover quests you want to do.

 

I can write a little *proof of concept* mod like that and we can test if it breaks continuity in EET. I think that doing it this way might after all work.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*


#15 subtledoctor

subtledoctor
  • Modders
  • 2445 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 April 2018 - 05:34 PM

That sounds amazing! :D

My only suggestion migbt be to try to reduce the effort as much as possible... rather than designing a whole ambush scene, it might be easier to simply have a thief appear at the site of the Sarevok battle when it's over, nab the sword and give a short speech with a clue about Korlasz, and teleport away.

But if you're inspired, by all means indulge your creativity! (I'm just brainstorming, not prescribing.)

Faiths & Powers: Spell spheres and kit pack for priests and paladins
Might & Guile: Tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues
Scales of Balance: Game tweaks and rule overhauls
NPC_EE: More options for NPCs in BGEE, SoD, & BG2EE




Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users