II + nondetection = unbeatable?

[DarkWon]

My party is level 15-17 and am having trouble beating most high level mages. I have plenty of Breach/pierce magic etc but every mage is improved invisibile and nondetectable so they are useless. I have a 5% dispel chance, so assuming all 13 of my remove/dispel magics don't get interrupted (which NEVER happens) I may get lucky and take down 1 of their 6 PfMW

 

Any ideas other than super-buff myself and just ride it out? I hate every fight being 20 minutes...

[Demivrgvs]

By "nondetectable" I suppose you mean "protected by SI:Div", because else a simple True Seeing should remove their illusionary protections.

 

In that case use spells such as Spell Thrust which both in SCS and SR has a small AoE allowing it to bypass II.

[Guest amanasleep]

By "nondetectable" I suppose you mean "protected by SI:Div", because else a simple True Seeing should remove their illusionary protections.

 

In that case use spells such as Spell Thrust which both in SCS and SR has a small AoE allowing it to bypass II.

 

Except that most mages also run GoI which foils spell thrust. The best thing to do at that point is cast Chaos and/or Insect Plague. Both are 5th level area spells that have long lasting disabling effects that will take most mages right out of combat for at the very least the duration of their PfMW spells.

[Yangus1]

Although insect plague can affect groups it has to be targeted on a single target and therefore if the mage has improved invisibilty running you can't target him if he is alone. If someone is with him however, you can target them and the insects may spread to the mage if the two enemies are close enough.

 

DarkWon: Spells such as spell thrust, secret word, Khelben's Warding Whip and Ruby Ray of Reversal are very important with SCSII installed. There is a component of SCSII that allows them to bypass II. If a mage casts either spell immunity: divination or SI: abjuration you need to cast at least one of these spells to remove the enemy mages immunity (or invisibilty) before you can cast breach on them. Ruby Ray of Reversal is especially useful as it isn't an abjuration spell so if a mage has SI: abjuration running as will as other protections it will bypass the spell immunity and remove an other protection.

[Guest amanasleep]

Although insect plague can affect groups it has to be targeted on a single target and therefore if the mage has improved invisibilty running you can't target him if he is alone. If someone is with him however, you can target them and the insects may spread to the mage if the two enemies are close enough.

 

I forget, can Insect Plague be targeted on the caster? I think it can.

 

DarkWon: Spells such as spell thrust, secret word, Khelben's Warding Whip and Ruby Ray of Reversal are very important with SCSII installed. There is a component of SCSII that allows them to bypass II. If a mage casts either spell immunity: divination or SI: abjuration you need to cast at least one of these spells to remove the enemy mages immunity (or invisibilty) before you can cast breach on them. Ruby Ray of Reversal is especially useful as it isn't an abjuration spell so if a mage has SI: abjuration running as will as other protections it will bypass the spell immunity and remove an other protection.

 

Pierce Magic is the best of these because it's the lowest level that can go through GoI, but I prefer to go with area damage/disabling, as you can usually find at least one that gets around whatever combat buffs they have up. Chain Lightning and Cone of Cold are very good for this purpose.

[DarkWon]

Thanks for all the suggestions! so lets see...

 

Insect plague: I don't have a druid

 

Chaos: doesn't work on liches??

 

RR of Reversal: I didn't have this at the time but yep that works great...a few of them knocks out their Immunity:Div eventually

 

Spell thrust: Oddly enough I haven't found this spell, and I am at the Underdark :S can it take down a 5th level protection? i.e. Spell Immunity

 

Eventually my answer was to mimic their tactics....Improved invisibility, Nondetection, Immunity: Abjuration (my most vital spell now!!)

[Guest amanasleep]

Thanks for all the suggestions! so lets see...

 

Insect plague: I don't have a druid

 

Too bad, makes even SCSII mages much easier. If you have a cleric you can try Greater Command. Not as tough a save as Chaos, but a far more debilitating effect and a casting time of 1.

 

Chaos: doesn't work on liches??

 

True enough. Try Chain Lightning (or Delayed Blast Fireball if he doesn't have Pro Fire running).

 

RR of Reversal: I didn't have this at the time but yep that works great...a few of them knocks out their Immunity:Div eventually

 

Spell thrust: Oddly enough I haven't found this spell, and I am at the Underdark :S can it take down a 5th level protection? i.e. Spell Immunity

 

Spell Thrust is great unless they have GoI running. But if they don't have GoI running you are better off spamming Skull Trap.

 

Eventually my answer was to mimic their tactics....Improved invisibility, Nondetection, Immunity: Abjuration (my most vital spell now!!)

 

Mass Invisibility is the key if you have a party.

[Saros]

First of all: although your Remove Magic will not dispel all enemy buffs, it WILL dispel Mirror Image, Melf's Meteors (or another spell-created weapon) and potion buffs unquestionally.

 

Second: a good thief with detect illusion 100% is always essential in an SCS game, no matter if SCS I or SCS II. He will bypass SI:D and dispel enemy illusions.

 

Third option: use Wands of Spell Striking. They will bypass enemy's Improved Invisibility. If you don't have any, use Breach scrolls and spell protection removal scrolls (Secret word scrolls, Pierce magic scrolls, RRR scrolls, etc).

 

Fourth option: use Death Fog or Incendiary cloud as spell disruptors. If the enemy is protected from Acid or respectively - from Fire, the spells will not deal damage, but will disrupt spellcasting, provided you get rid of enemy Mirror Images via Remove Magic in time.

 

Insect Plague is good, but Creeping doom is even better, since it affects liches as well.

 

Edit: Leave an item on the ground near the enemy mage and cast Insect Plague or Creeping doom onto it.

 

I would never rely on Chaos. Saving throw allowed, and those same undispellable illusion buffs (Improved Invisibility, Blur) improve the saves of the enemy mage, so that Chaos has almost no chance to work.

[Guest amanasleep]

First of all: although your Remove Magic will not dispel all enemy buffs, it WILL dispel Mirror Image, Melf's Meteors (or another spell-created weapon) and potion buffs unquestionally.

 

The problem with remove magic is always level. In this case he is 15-17 going against casting level 18+, which gets him a 40% chance of success at best, and 1% at worst. Are you saying RM dispels MI and spell created Weapons without checking level? If so it's quite a bit better than I thought.

 

Second: a good thief with detect illusion 100% is always essential in an SCS game, no matter if SCS I or SCS II. He will bypass SI:D and dispel enemy illusions.

 

This solves a lot of SCS II problems. It's so essential that it renders most SCS II mages irrelevent. Part Thief classes have a much easier time soloing SCS II because of Detect Illusions.

 

Third option: use Wands of Spell Striking. They will bypass enemy's Improved Invisibility. If you don't have any, use Breach scrolls and spell protection removal scrolls (Secret word scrolls, Pierce magic scrolls, RRR scrolls, etc).

 

Don't forget to cast your scrolls using Project Image!

 

Fourth option: use Death Fog or Incendiary cloud as spell disruptors. If the enemy is protected from Acid or respectively - from Fire, the spells will not deal damage, but will disrupt spellcasting, provided you get rid of enemy Mirror Images via Remove Magic in time.

 

Use Cloudkill for non-Liches, but Incendiary Cloud and other fire attacks almost always fail because SCS II mages cast Pro Fire so often.

 

Problems with Remove/Dispel noted above, but I find the best way to get rid of Mirror Images is to attack them--I believe that mirror images are removed by attacks before PfMW or other combat protections are checked (ie Attack Roll-->Successful-->Image?-->If No then check for Protections-->If yes then dispel Image). I forget whether their annoying Fire Shields kick in though.

 

Insect Plague is good, but Creeping doom is even better, since it affects liches as well.

 

Keep in mind that for non-Lich opponents you may prefer Plague because it is effective over GoI and disrupts spellcasting for 6 rounds instead of 3, which allows you to wait out their first PfMW and forces them to Contingency/Trigger their second one. Creeping Doom allows them to hard cast it. The 36 damage that a Creeping Doom does is unlikely to kill a high level mage with even 2 castings.

 

If you don't have a Druid but do have a good aligned cleric, Holy Word is not so bad against Mages and Liches--50% casting failure for 10 Rounds with no save at Casting Time 1.

 

Edit: Leave an item on the ground near the enemy mage and cast Insect Plague or Creeping doom onto it.

 

Awesome, didn't know this.

 

I would never rely on Chaos. Saving throw allowed, and those same undispellable illusion buffs (Improved Invisibility, Blur) improve the saves of the enemy mage, so that Chaos has almost no chance to work.

 

II + Blur lets them save vs. Chaos at 5. You're probably right. It's still pretty good in the early SoA fights.

 

Additionally I might mention that Nishruu remains very potent in SCS II, although although enemy mages no longer waste spells by trying to fireball it. Just remember to summon something else first to draw out that Death Spell.

[Saros]

The problem with remove magic is always level. In this case he is 15-17 going against casting level 18+, which gets him a 40% chance of success at best, and 1% at worst. Are you saying RM dispels MI and spell created Weapons without checking level? If so it's quite a bit better than I thought.

 

Potion buffs, as well as green protection scroll buffs, are always considered to be of lvl 10.

Mirror Image is always dispelled without checking (unless of course the enemy's running SI:A or is otherwise immune to the effect of Dispel/Remove magic)

Spell-created weapons are always dispelled in BG2, but in BG1 SCS MMM are not dispelled by remove magic, which probably means that spell-created weapons are also always considered to be lvl 10.

 

Use Cloudkill for non-Liches, but Incendiary Cloud and other fire attacks almost always fail because SCS II mages cast Pro Fire so often.

 

The thing is not about killing the enemy, but disrupting spellcasting. So Incendiary cloud is always useful, and becomes even more useful after Breaching the enemy.

 

Problems with Remove/Dispel noted above, but I find the best way to get rid of Mirror Images is to attack them--I believe that mirror images are removed by attacks before PfMW or other combat protections are checked (ie Attack Roll-->Successful-->Image?-->If No then check for Protections-->If yes then dispel Image). I forget whether their annoying Fire Shields kick in though.

 

No. Things are like this: Attack roll(successful) - check enemy weapon protections (ProMW, ProNW, Mantle, Improved Mantle, Absolute Immunity, innate weapon immunities) to see if hit is scored, here also Fireshield kicks in -> if a hit is scored, the other enemy protections (Stoneskin, Mirror Image) kick in and the hit removes one image or one stoneskin.

 

Meaning, that while the enemy is fireshielded and Protected from magical weapons, you may try to hit with magic weapons, but you won't remove even one mirror image, while your character will take damage from enemy Fireshield.

 

Keep in mind that for non-Lich opponents you may prefer Plague because it is effective over GoI and disrupts spellcasting for 6 rounds instead of 3, which allows you to wait out their first PfMW and forces them to Contingency/Trigger their second one. Creeping Doom allows them to hard cast it. The 36 damage that a Creeping Doom does is unlikely to kill a high level mage with even 2 castings.

 

If you don't have a Druid but do have a good aligned cleric, Holy Word is not so bad against Mages and Liches--50% casting failure for 10 Rounds with no save at Casting Time 1.

 

Insect Plague and Creeping Doom bite and remove Stoneskin and Mirror Image as well. This can be combined with Blade Barrier or Globe of Blades (they bypass weapon immunities, but not Stoneskin/IronSkin/Mirror Image).

 

As for Clerics: I always prefer a neutral aligned one, because he has access to both Holy and Unholy Word (as well as to Holy Smite and Unholy Blight), while at the same time being immune to all these spells due to alignment.

 

I think that under some installs, Holy Words' deafness effect stacks for 100% spellcasting failure. However, the spell does not ingnore Magic resistance.

[Guest amanasleep]

Thanks Saros.

 

One final observation. I hear a lot of people having trouble with II + SI:D and/or SI:A, but IMO this is not a difficult combo to overcome. The big spell that makes mages tough in SCSII is Globe of Invulnerability. This denies alot of very easy strategies for dealing with even very powerful mages.

 

Consider:

 

A mage with all the usual buffs in SCSII except GoI can be Webbed, Glitterdusted, choked in a Stinking Cloud, Panicked, Silenced, Fireballed, Lightning Bolted, Skull Trapped, Held, Holy Smited, Confused, Ice Stormed, or affected with Hopelessness or Greater Malison. These low level spells can be put in sequencers, spammed, etc. to overwhelm improved saves, and often have low casting times so they can interrupt casting even if the damage is resisted. Some strategies, like Minor Sequencer 2X Web, are so effective at disabling unprotected mages that I would recommend opening almost any mage battle with it.

 

In Vanilla you'd never see a GoI, but SCSII makes great use of it, and it has at least as much, if not more, impact on enemy mage survivability as any of the Immunities.

[Guest Michayel]

I am currently on a playthrough with SCS II and I have had a problem with enemy mages removing buffs against Jan Jansen, even when he is wearing Immunity:Abjuration. For example, in a recent battle he was wearing Pro:MagEnergy, Pro:Fire, Minor Globe, and Immunity:Abjuration. The enemy mage cast Secret Word (a level 4 abjuration spell) and the text reported that 'Jan:Spell Protections Dispelled'. The rest of his buffs soon followed; breach, etc.

 

I *think* this might be because of the new area effect character of such spells: the spell maybe landed near to Jan, rather than being targetted on him, and the 'fireball' effect of the Secret Word bypassed his Immunity:Abjuration. This is highly annoying, as my group has tried and failed with Secret Word already: I would not expect an abjuration spell to affect someone immune to abjuration, so I would not even use it. However, the enemy mages have twice 'broken the rules' in this way (both times against poor Jan).

 

This leads to another criticism of my current experience of SCS II, (with enemy mages casting buffs freely and instantly as much as they want). I noticed in the early game that the Secret Word would not be such a great choice for my magic-heavy party: it is simply eaten up by Improved Globe. Pierce Magic was another false dawn, as it could not penetrate Immunity:Abjuration (without 'cheating'). So the really important spell Ruby Ray of Reversal is now VITAL in SCS II (for those of us who like trading spell protections and anti-spell-protections). However, it is available NOWHERE in my current game so far (chapter three, but all except Umar completed). Someone needs to patch in some over-priced Ruby scrolls to the merchants

 

On a general note, as it is my first post on these boards, I am compelled to congratulate all concerned on an excellent mod, one which soon will probably considered 'as standard', if it isnt already.

 

PS: adding to some discussion above, Feeblemind is a good spell (level five, with save penalty). It is effectively a 'kill shot' and has come in very handy against various foul enemies.

[Demivrgvs]

I am currently on a playthrough with SCS II and I have had a problem with enemy mages removing buffs against Jan Jansen, even when he is wearing Immunity:Abjuration. For example, in a recent battle he was wearing Pro:MagEnergy, Pro:Fire, Minor Globe, and Immunity:Abjuration. The enemy mage cast Secret Word (a level 4 abjuration spell) and the text reported that 'Jan:Spell Protections Dispelled'. The rest of his buffs soon followed; breach, etc.

 

... Secret Word bypassed his Immunity:Abjuration. ... I would not expect an abjuration spell to affect someone immune to abjuration, so I would not even use it. However, the enemy mages have twice 'broken the rules' in this way (both times against poor Jan).

 

... Pierce Magic was another false dawn, as it could not penetrate Immunity:Abjuration (without 'cheating'). ...

I may help you by saying that each and every 'magic attack' spell (Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, ...) bypasses SI:Abj despite being Abjuration spells. It's how these spells worked in vanilla and DavidW decided to not change them. I agree with you on this matter (and I previously implemented what you say within Spell Revisions) but I also understand that DavidW wouldn't like to change it as it would have a huge impact on his mage scripts.

[Saros]

Hmph. Then I suppose that Spellstrike can evaporize all spell protections in one shot (Spell Immunitites included), which will make the spell extremely useful.

[Shaitan]

Spellstrike is extremely efficient in SCS2