EET vanilla/mod NPC continuity questions (spoilers)

[bob_veng]

if you look at NPC mods that extend vanilla NPC playability and in a way simulate continuity:

 

for BG1 - Aerie for BG:EE

for SoD - Sharteel NPC mod for SoD

for BG2
Alora NPC v1.5
Branwen for BG2
Coran for BG2
Kivan and Deheriana Companions for BG2
Sir Ajantis NPC for BGII
Tiax for BG2
Xan for BG2

 

 

it's interesting to note that none of the NPCs added to BG2 are available in SoD. probably it wouldn't be bad to just create a complementary mod specifically for EET that enables all seven of them in SoD even without any real content...the only required thing would be making them behave like vanilla SoD NPCs (leave the party at specific times, be at certain locations where you can find them again, with perhaps a few lines of dialogue). since they are quite prominent in BG1 and BG2, the lack of content in SoD for them won't even be noticed (SoD is relatively short after all)

imo such a mod should only make them available in SoD if you have them at the end of BG1

 

the only problem is if their story demands that they have been absent for a relatively long time from your party. i can't say because i don't rembemer the details of these mods.

 

this would mean that you can play EET with these followers completely normally, just like with the most developed vanilla followers

[Roxanne]

if you look at NPC mods that extend vanilla NPC playability and in a way simulate continuity:

 

for BG1 - Aerie for BG:EE

for SoD - Sharteel NPC mod for SoD

 

for BG2

Alora NPC v1.5

Branwen for BG2

Coran for BG2

Kivan and Deheriana Companions for BG2

Sir Ajantis NPC for BGII

Tiax for BG2

Xan for BG2

 

 

it's interesting to note that none of the NPCs added to BG2 are available in SoD. probably it wouldn't be bad to just create a complementary mod specifically for EET that enables all seven of them in SoD even without any real content...the only required thing would be making them behave like vanilla SoD NPCs (leave the party at specific times, be at certain locations where you can find them again, with perhaps a few lines of dialogue). since they are quite prominent in BG1 and BG2, the lack of content in SoD for them won't even be noticed (SoD is relatively short after all)

imo such a mod should only make them available in SoD if you have them at the end of BG1

 

the only problem is if their story demands that they have been absent for a relatively long time from your party. i can't say because i don't rembemer the details of these mods.

 

this would mean that you can play EET with these followers completely normally, just like with the most developed vanilla followers

At least from their story, Ajantis and Kivan (the new mod parts added to BG2) should not be in SoD - they have indeed been away from the party for a while and encountered events that are part of their plot. The part2 mods take the period of separation into account. (Note that Deheriana only appears late in BG2 anyway and never in BG1 - nor SoD, of course).

 

Same in a limited way for Xan.

 

Tiax is in SoD already, same as Coran and they give you their reasons for not joining there.

 

Alora could be a candidate (probably bean dogs left her out to promote their enhanced Safana) -

even if personally I really prefer the *new* Safana, probably the only worthy non-mod NPC for SoD...+ Neera, the only good new EE character (but then who needs new vanilla NPCs when there are soooo many good mods.

 

 

As for Branwen...try Sirene for a change. (The idea of Branwen, Shar-Teel, Kagain, Eldoth etc to appear - with no contents - in BG2 again comes from a time before Amn was crowded with far better NPCs.)

 

PS - forgot someone: Corwin

She could have been a very interesting and complex character, even romancing PC ---- just SoD is too short for her to really develop. The EET approach for her should be to start her earlier, in the BG1 part when you reach town. You can get to know her there already, she may accompany you on Scar's tasks, her background story (and eventual romance) could evolve. This would make her SoD story and final dilemma even more interesting.

And to make it perfect, in BG2 you resolve Skie's murder accusation, can return to BG City and continue with Corwin...

 

[Woolie Wool]

 

Wait, Minsc will disappear in SoD and BG2 if Dynaheir is killed? I have to drag around the most annoying NPC in the entire game to be allowed to keep the most entertaining one? Is there any way at all to have the butt-kicking in BG2 without the thees and thous and various incorrect uses thereof in BG1? Could I petrify and not chunk her instead? Is there still a time limit on recruiting Dynaheir (i.e. Minsc will leave the party if you don't recruit her eventually)? If so, and failing any other solutions, will killing and resurrecting Minsc stop the time limit just like it did in BG1?

It works as explained in this post, so yes, killing her when she is outside party or kicking death NPC out of the party will result in content not being available in later portions of the story. There are some ways to separate Bioware forced pairs without downright killing one of them:

- I think if you dismiss her, and exit the building before she actually can talk to you, Minsc will stay in your party.

- try killing Minsc, then kick Dynhaheir, than resurrect Minsc (untested)

- or simply install one of SCS components that allows BG1 forced pairs to be separated

 

Also, if I do not dual-class Imoen, will she get her mage class after SoD? The story would certainly justify this, as she must have gotten quite a bit of mage EXP studying magic during SoD.

I've experimented with forcing dual class via script (CRE previously patched with proper flag to enable dual rather than multi classing) but this results in original class to have 0 XP after scripted dual class. Can't be done as far as I know.

 

Also, will Voghiln or other SoD NPCs be re-recruitable after SoD is over?

nope, they move with their own business (at the same time as in vanilla SoD, so they leave the party before you return to Baldur's Gate). Someone would need to write a new SoA content for them.

 

I would suggest just spawning Imoen with a different .CRE file. Her dual class must happen according to the story, and the story shows her pursuing magic without the player's help in SoD.

 

It works as explained in this post, so yes, killing her when she is outside party or kicking death NPC out of the party will result in content not being available in later portions of the story. There are some ways to separate Bioware forced pairs without downright killing one of them:

- I think if you dismiss her, and exit the building before she actually can talk to you, Minsc will stay in your party.

- try killing Minsc, then kick Dynhaheir, than resurrect Minsc (untested)

- or simply install one of SCS components that allows BG1 forced pairs to be separate

I actually came up with #2 on my own and tested it on Khalid and Jaheira. Guess that's going to be my plan.

[bob_veng]

 

...

At least from their story, Ajantis and Kivan (the new mod parts added to BG2) should not be in SoD - they have indeed been away from the party for a while and encountered events that are part of their plot. The part2 mods take the period of separation into account. (Note that Deheriana only appears late in BG2 anyway and never in BG1 - nor SoD, of course).

 

Same in a limited way for Xan.

 

Tiax is in SoD already, same as Coran and they give you their reasons for not joining there.

 

Alora could be a candidate (probably bean dogs left her out to promote their enhanced Safana) -

even if personally I really prefer the *new* Safana, probably the only worthy non-mod NPC for SoD...+ Neera, the only good new EE character (but then who needs new vanilla NPCs when there are soooo many good mods.

 

 

As for Branwen...try Sirene for a change. (The idea of Branwen, Shar-Teel, Kagain, Eldoth etc to appear - with no contents - in BG2 again comes from a time before Amn was crowded with far better NPCs.)

 

PS - forgot someone: Corwin

She could have been a very interesting and complex character, even romancing PC ---- just SoD is too short for her to really develop. The EET approach for her should be to start her earlier, in the BG1 part when you reach town. You can get to know her there already, she may accompany you on Scar's tasks, her background story (and eventual romance) could evolve. This would make her SoD story and final dilemma even more interesting.

And to make it perfect, in BG2 you resolve Skie's murder accusation, can return to BG City and continue with Corwin...

 

 

 

(about deheriana - yeah i just listed the mod with it's original title with only kivan in mind)

 

so branwen for BG2 does not have a lot of development?

 

tiax and coran can just be made to be able to join you after all (if they crossed BG>SoD with you). nothing special required there except minor dialogue rewrite.

 

what do you think about kivan being available in SoD after all, since he gets a lot of breathing room SoA anyway?

 

alora is sufficiently different from safana in personality. having them both would be quite alright

 

edit: i should also mention that there's a quayle for BG2 mod (quayle redone) http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/845-quayle-redone-v20/

does it not work with EET?

[Roxanne]

what do you think about kivan being available in SoD after all, since he gets a lot of breathing room SoA anyway?

As a rule of thumb I would advocate to leave all those NPCs alone for which a dedicated BG2 mod exists. Leave it to those mofmakers to decide on SoD contents, they may want to make it consistent with the later story.

 

Alora, Quayle... - wonder why nobody asks for Eldoth? He would be interesting in the light of Skie's new development of her own short life.

 

As long as nobody provides contents, what is the gain. SoD maps are FULL of people. There should be some reason/contents provided for people to be there. I remember a BGT mod that filled Irenicus Dungeon with everybody you could think of - just to give you packmules and cannonfodder. Rather learn from old mistakes instead of repeating them. Less can be more. In this case a few NPCs with a dedicated contents (see Sirene as an example) make much more sense than old dummies. It would encourage modders to fill the void (if they feel there is one).

I would rather wait for some Eldoth in SoD mod than just to carry BG1 Eldoth over, just as an example.

[bob_veng]

i agree 100% but what i was trying to point out (not very successfully it turns out) is that a lack of content in SoD for an NPC that has a substantial amount of it in BG1 and BG2 (because of a mod) is not a problem because SoD is short and it might just be that it's a period while nothing terribly interesting happens in that characters life y'know

 

but this is not a very valuable idea because it's applicable only to a handful of NPCs

 

edut: but really if you just put for example alora in sod with nothing new, it will look completely seamless. she'd be more "active" in some parts of the game and less in others and i think it would be a seamless high quality addition because it would mean having an experience of a continuous alora. it would lift her up to the level of a fully realized NPC without adding clutter because she already exists in the game

[subtledoctor]

Wait, Minsc will disappear in SoD and BG2 if Dynaheir is killed?

Think about Minsc's dialogue at the beginning of SoA... how would it make any sense if Dynaheir died in the Gnoll Stronghold?

 

Whereas, if Dynaheir is told to wait in an inn somewhere for here own safety, while you go take on Sarevok/Caelar et al., and then she can rejoin you afterward for the trip back to Baldur's Gate, then the SoA content works just fine. So the mod(s) that let NPC pairs separate is the solution to your concern.

[subtledoctor]

Alora could be a candidate (probably bean dogs left her out to promote their enhanced Safana)

I believe it's been established that Beamdog only left out some BG1 NPCs from SoD because they couldn't get the voice actors. And with one necessary exception, they weren't willing to switch the NPC over to a new/different/suspension-of-disbelief-breaking voice.

 

That may or may not be a good decision, but it's a plausible one. There's no need for "OMG SJW!!1!" conspiracy theories.

[bob_veng]

you may be unfairly critical of that statement. i think it's an honest and expectable impression on roxanne's part since they're both thieves. also it's undeniable that beamdog wanted as few repeating NPC as possible because it's their philosophy (they don't want to be recyclers). so it's not just the feasibility issue

 

---

also i want to talk about how fleshing out multiple existing NPCs in a unified take on the issue is very good in context of EET because it increases the players freedom of choice a lot since the biggest choice in the game is choosing your followers and in eet some choices like alora won't be equally meaningful for most people

 

on the other hand installing an all new mod NPC doesn't increase freedom of choice and add any dilemmas in-game because it's a "predetermined" fact that you'll use this guy since you purposefully added him to the game

[Woolie Wool]

 

Wait, Minsc will disappear in SoD and BG2 if Dynaheir is killed?

Think about Minsc's dialogue at the beginning of SoA... how would it make any sense if Dynaheir died in the Gnoll Stronghold?

 

Whereas, if Dynaheir is told to wait in an inn somewhere for here own safety, while you go take on Sarevok/Caelar et al., and then she can rejoin you afterward for the trip back to Baldur's Gate, then the SoA content works just fine. So the mod(s) that let NPC pairs separate is the solution to your concern.

 

I have installed that part of SCS several times and it has never worked. If I click "Reform Party" and boot one half of a pair out, the other will also leave even if that component is installed. Fortunately the kill Minsc --> boot Dynaheir --> resurrect Minsc trick will work if my experiment on Khalid and Jaheira was any indication (I successfully got rid of Khalid without killing him that way).

[K4thos]

I have installed that part of SCS several times and it has never worked. If I click "Reform Party" and boot one half of a pair out, the other will also leave even if that component is installed. Fortunately the kill Minsc --> boot Dynaheir --> resurrect Minsc trick will work if my experiment on Khalid and Jaheira was any indication (I successfully got rid of Khalid without killing him that way).

 

If I remember correctly that component works a little different. Once both leave the next time you meet them there should be a new conversation available where you can ask them to split.

[Roxanne]

 

I have installed that part of SCS several times and it has never worked. If I click "Reform Party" and boot one half of a pair out, the other will also leave even if that component is installed. Fortunately the kill Minsc --> boot Dynaheir --> resurrect Minsc trick will work if my experiment on Khalid and Jaheira was any indication (I successfully got rid of Khalid without killing him that way).

 

If I remember correctly that component works a little different. Once both leave the next time you meet them there should be a new conversation available where you can ask them to split.

 

You remember correctly, I just checked it on my game with Khalid and Jaheira. You kick one out - both leave - you talk to the one you want to keep again - you have the option to take that one alone. I checked this couple as I had them in the party but I remember that Minsc and Dynaheir work the same way.

[Jarno Mikkola]

But I still prefer the petrification solution for the couples splitting problem. If only there were hidden basilisk in FAI, maybe in a cellar.

Yeah, we'll come back to him once we ... ouh yeah, were did we leave him, anyways.

[jastey]

What would be EET's approach to handle Ajantis' death in BG1? From the logic, I assume he wouldn't be one of the knights in the Windspear fight, so Keldorn's and Anomen's remarks would have to be suppressed. Is this already implemented or do you intend to do so?

[K4thos]

What would be EET's approach to handle Ajantis' death in BG1? From the logic, I assume he wouldn't be one of the knights in the Windspear fight, so Keldorn's and Anomen's remarks would have to be suppressed. Is this already implemented or do you intend to do so?

I was thinking about it but in the end came to conclusion that it may create unnecessary compatibility issues between mods like yours, so decided to handle just joinable continuous NPCs and leave BG2 cameo NPCs stuff for mods that introduce proper content for them. This can be changed of course if there is consensus that it should work differently.

 

In Ajantis case this would be as easy as filtering out a dialogue or two that references him during that orcs quest but there are more extreme situations with cameos like Quayle - respecting his death state would mean that we would need to cut out whole Circus quest if he's dead and I think it wouldn't be very popular among players considering Quayle is not even joinable in BG2 (and would block access to Aerie). There are also theories that the Quayle in Athkatla is not really the same gnome you met in BG1 (completely different personality). When I now think about it maybe extending full NPC continuity feature for cameo NPCs would be better suited for EET_Tweaks component?