Demivrgvs Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 Potions Begging for lowering potion's price. I've NEVER bought any potion because they look so expensive. 150 gold pieces for a potion which heals 8hp? I think prices should be nearer to these from NWN. I'd pay 50 gold for one. And for these larger 150.That reminds me I wanted to add all potions within V3. I'm open to suggestions, and revising the prices may be an interesting aspect. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 Speaking of potions I've taken a look at them and here's my first thoughts... Potion of (Extra/Superior) Healing Only few small things to discuss here: 1) amount of hp healed 2) prices 1) As of now these potions cure 9, 27, and 40 hp respectively. Am I the only one who would prefer the various amounts to be rounded values, and the progression to be more linear? 2) As of now these potions cost 75, 450, and 650 gp respectively. Considering stores sell at least with a +50% overprice I probably agree with yarpen that these potions are too expensive, because 700 gold for a potion which cures 27 hp doesn't seem right when you think that two potions cost as much as a +1 enchanted armor/weapon. Potion of Fire/Cold Resistance & Potion of Insulation These are probably fine except perhaps the prices, 400, 250 and 170 gp respectively. The only possible change would be a rather radical one, which is to double their effectiveness and grant complete protection a la SR. Potion of Absorption already does this and more but I'm not sure about it, it sounds a little too much. Potion of Absorption This potion doesn't make much sense to me, as it grants two abilities not correlated at all (100% electrical resistance and +10 AC vs. crushing weapons), and at the same time it makes Potion of Insulation extremely obsolete. Personally I would make it physical oriented, with something like physical damage resistance, or AC bonus, or if we like to go crazy a lesser Stoneskin. Any suggestion? P.S I'm surely going to switch the bams of Potion of Insulation and Absorption, as the former as a stone like pattern while the latter seems perfect for an electrical themed potion. Potion of Invulnerability I never used it. Isn't base AC 0 too powerful for BG1 and too weak for BG2? This potion should be pretty rare, and its incredibly high cost (1200 gp) seems to confirm it. Oil of Fiery Burning/Potion of Explotions These two potions seem identical right now, with only a different price 450 and 500. Personally I'd keep Potion of Explotions almost unchanged, while the Oil of Fiery Burning may be changed to something a little different. What about reducing its AoE to a small 5 feet radius, but allowing it to bypass magic resistance? It doesn't seem appropriate at all for magic resistance to block it. I also thought about ongoing fire damage on a failed save, but it may be too much effective. Antidote & Elixir of Health I don't know about their prices, the former's 100 gp seems fine, the latter's 250 gp may be a little unappealing. Anyway, what about allowing the latter to cure diseases too? Potion of Master Thievery & Perception These two cost 400 and 350 respectively. First of all, these potions shouldn't stack with themselves. Second, I like what aVENGER did with them, except for the part which makes Potion of Master Thievery completely useless to a 13th+ level thief. I think Potion of Master Thievery should at least affect Hide in Shadow and Move Silently too, while Potion of Perception should grant a bonus to Detect Illusion too (while it shouldn't grant a bonus to Hide in Shadow imo). Any suggestion? Potion of Hill/Stone/Frost/Fire/Cloud/Storm Giant Strength Despite what I did to the respective items I think these potions may remain as they are, setting strength to a fixed value instead of incrementing it. I really don't know how to determine the correct price values for them. One thing though, should these potions remain usable only by warriors? Potion of Strenght/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius Potion of Genius grants +4 to INT while the other set the respective characteristic to 18. Which solution do you prefer? If we want to apply the former I'd make them not stackable, but I'm not sure +4 would be balanced. These potions though remind me that within BG an increased INT or WIS is an almost useless effect (useful only against Mind Flayer, learn spells or cast Wish). WIS was supposed to grant improved saves vs spells (even BG's manual mention it) but it was never implemented. Even setting CON doesn't work too well imo, because only warriors get something from a value higher than 16. Should we take a completely different approach? For example Potion of Fortitude may increase maximum hit points by 20%, Potion of Insight may grant +2 to WIS and +2 to saves vs spell, and so on. Potion of Mind Focusing Pratically a Potion of Agility+Genius. You know I don't like these things. More to come... Link to comment
DrAzTiK Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Potion of Hill/Stone/Frost/Fire/Cloud/Storm Giant Strength Potion of haste I think that duration should be a bit short, more or less the same amount providing by equivalent spells. ( in general, it's 1 round duration per level) Link to comment
Ardanis Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Stat-enhancing potions Potion of Agility Cost: 300 Duration: 15 Effect: DEX=18 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Reflexes (350) +2 DEX, +2 save vs breath, +1 dodge AC (+1 vs 4 types, not sheer +1 vs all) Potion of Strength Cost: 350 Duration: 20 Effect: STR=18 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Fortitude Cost: 500 Duration: 15 Effect: CON=18 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Fortitude (350) +2 CON, +2 save vs death * +9 max hp for non-warriors Potion of Insight Cost: 300 Duration: 30 Effect: WIS=18 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Will (350) +2 WIS, +2 save vs spells * needs something else, to be as two others Potion of Genius Cost: 300 Duration: 15 Effect: INT +4 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Mind Focusing Cost: 500 Duration: 60 Effect: INT +3, DEX +3 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Hill Giant Strength Cost: 300 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=19; warrior only Potion of Stone Giant Strength Cost: 500 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=20; warrior only Potion of Frost Giant Strength Cost: 750 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=21; warrior only Potion of Fire Giant Strength Cost: 1000 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=22; warrior only Potion of Cloud Giant Strength Cost: 1250 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=23; warrior only Potion of Storm Giant Strength Cost: 1500 Duration: 10 Effect: STR=24; warrior only * do these stack with +x from belts? I think they do Protective potions Potion of Fire Resistance Cost: 400 Duration: 10 Effect: +50% fire ------------------------------------------------ (400) 100% res Potion of Cold Resistance Cost: 250 Duration: 10 Effect: +50% cold ------------------------------------------------ (400) 100% res Potion of Insulation Cost: 170 Duration: 10 Effect: +50% elec ------------------------------------------------ (400) 100% res Potion of Absorbtion Cost: 600 Duration: 10 Effect: +100% elec, +10 AC vs bludgeoning ------------------------------------------------ Blood of Barbarian (750) 5 turns, immunity to backstab, +15% phys res, not by barbarian * yes, borrowed from IA Potion of Magic Shielding Cost: 1250 Duration: 3 Effect: +50% fire/cold/elec/acid/magic, +20 saves ------------------------------------------------ (1500) Potion of Invulnerability Cost: 1200 Duration: 5 Effect: AC=0, +5 saves, warrior only ------------------------------------------------ (750) Potion of Defense Cost: 700 Duration: 10 Effect: AC=0 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Barkskin (400) 10 turns, +3 AC Potion of Magic Blocking Cost: 1500 Duration: 0.5 Effect: immunity to 1-9 (!!!) spell levels ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Magic Protection Cost: 1000 Duration: 10 Effect: +50% MR ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Magic Resistance (1000) 3 turns, +30% MR ___NON-DISPELLABLE___ Potion of Stone Form Cost: 500 Duration: 5 Effect: AC=0, DEX -3, +3 saves ------------------------------------------------ (750) +4 AC vs slashing/piercing/missile, -4 AC vs bludgeoning, -3 save vs breath, +3 to other saves * +1 stoneskin (?) Potion of Clarity Cost: 700 Duration: 5 Effect: immunity to mind-affecting ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Mirrored Eyes Cost: 400 Duration: 1 Effect: immunity to gaze attacks ------------------------------------------------ Curative potions Potion of Healing Cost: 72 Duration: n/a Effect: +9 hp ------------------------------------------------ Cure Light Wounds (25) 1d8+5 = 6-13 = 9.5 Potion of Extra Healing Cost: 450 Duration: n/a Effect: +27 hp ------------------------------------------------ Cure Serious Wounds (100) 3d8+12 = 15-36 = 25.5 Potion of Superior Healing Cost: 650 Duration: n/a Effect: +40 hp ------------------------------------------------ Cure Critical Wounds (200) 4d8+24 = 28-56 = 42 Potion of Regeneration Cost: 500 Duration: 3 Effect: 1hp/3sec regeneration ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Trollish Fortitude (400) a) 1 turn, 12hp/round b) 15 turns, 1hp/round * which is better? Antidote Cost: 100 Duration: n/a Effect: cure poison ------------------------------------------------ (100) 2 turns, cure poison, immunity to poison, 100% poison damage res Elixir of Healing Cost: 250 Duration: n/a Effect: cure poison, cure disease (!!!), +10 hp ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Purification (150) same but +15 hp Combat potions Potion of Heroism Cost: 800 Duration: 10 Effect: +10% hp, +10% thaco; warrior only ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Power Cost: 1700 Duration: 4 Effect: +20% hp, +20% thaco, +20% skills (not adds +20% but multiplies by 120%) ------------------------------------------------ Oil of Speed Cost: 500 Duration: 5 Effect: haste ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Speed (350) 2 turns Potion of Explosions Cost: 450 Duration: n/a Effect: 6d6 fireball, save vs spells for half ------------------------------------------------ Fire Bomb (1000) 12d6 30' fireball, save vs breath for half * from NWN, maybe add it's fiery cloud (?) Potion of Firebreath Cost: 250 Duration: n/a Effect: 6d10 fire to single target, save vs breath for half ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Red Dragon Breath (750) Effect: 6d10 fire conus, save vs breath for half Oil of Fiery Burning Cost: 500 Duration: n/a Effect: 3d4+3d6 fireball, save vs breath for 3d4 ------------------------------------------------ Alchemist's Fire (150) 1d8+2 5' fireball OR set melee weapon aflame - +1d4 fire, 0.5 turn Miscellaneous potions Potion of Invisibility Cost: 250 Duration: 60 Effect: invisibility ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Infravision Cost: 100 Duration: 20 Effect: infravision ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Keen Sight (200) infravision, +5% critical, +1 thaco * change SR's True Strike into this Potion of Master Thievery Cost: 400 Duration: 21 Effect: +40% open locks, +40% pick pockets; rogue only ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Perception Cost: 350 Duration: 30 Effect: +20% open locks, disarm traps, move silently, pick pockets; thief only ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Freedom Cost: 250 Duration: 10 Effect: freedom ------------------------------------------------ Link to comment
mercurier Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Potion of [Elemental] Resistance 100% res sounds too steep to me: they are equivalent to lvl5 wizard spells Potion of Regeneration Potion of Trollish Fortitude (400)a) 1 turn, 12hp/round b) 15 turns, 1hp/round * which is better? If a), the price better be rised a little. Antidote 2 turns, cure poison, immunity to poison, 100% poison damage resI think antidote is as mundane as healing potions, and immunity to poison seems too powerful. Oil of Speed Potion of Speed (350)2 turns Oil of Fiery BurningAlchemist's Fire (150) Potion of ExplosionsFire Bomb (1000)I 'd prefer their vannila name Potion of Explosions Fire Bomb (1000)12d6 30' fireball, save vs breath for half * from NWN, maybe add it's fiery cloud (?) This is quite a drastic change. Some potions can be obtained without purchasing, and such fire bombs is undoubtly overpowered in BG1. Link to comment
DrAzTiK Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Potion of [Elemental] Resistance 100% res sounds too steep to me: they are equivalent to lvl5 wizard spells Imo 100% res should imply a short duration. (2turn?) Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 Thanks Ardanis, nice post. Few general things: - I'd generally keep original names like mercurier says. There may be cases where we can change it, such as Potion of Infravision in case we want to make it a viable item, but only when changing it is almost necessary to make the name better reflect the effects. - how often a potion can be found is a quite important factor. A hard to obtain potion can be pretty powerful without problems imo, but "common" ones can't. Potion that can only be found on stores can be made as "hard to obtain" by raising the prices, just like developers did with Arrow of Dispelling. Stat-enhancing potions Potion of Strength/Agility/Fortitude/Insight/Genius Actually I was suggesting that we may decide to replace stat bonuses with equivalent bonuses. I suggested this for the following reasons: - raising some stats is almost useless compared to others (e.g. INT and WIS) - raising CON is a little strange because priests, thieves and mages don't get anything for a CON higher than 16 - 2nd edition stat tables are quite ugly imo. For example a character with STR 13 using a +2 STR potion would get nothing, while the same potion used by a character with STR 17 would grant +2 hit +5 damage, and then a character with STR 18/00 would get only +2 to damage. It doesn't make sense imo, and similar things can be said about DEX and CON tables. Your solution is mid-way between vanilla's one and mine, it can be good, but still slightly affected by the above mentioned "issues". Anyway, it's quite possible that players don't consider those "issue" as a real problem at all. Potions of Giants Strength Thus we agree on keeping these work as per vanilla. I'm not sure about the prices, but it seems you vote for keeping vanilla's ones. Personally I'd reduce duration to 5 turns (1 hour) as 10 turns seems a little too much for such a powerful effect. * do these stack with +x from belts? I think they doWell...yes. Speaking of those girdles, another solution I discared but may work is to have them work like in vanilla but imposing a minimum strength value to use them. I don't like it too much, but I mention it for completeness. Protective potions Potion of Fire/Cold Resistance & Insulation cost 400 - 100% res - duration 10 turns 100% res sounds too steep to me: they are equivalent to lvl5 wizard spells Imo 100% res should imply a short duration. (2turn?)I'm going to play the devil's advocate because I don't know myself which solution is better. Anyway, many potions already have effects as powerful as a 4th or 5th level spell, such as Potion of Freedom, Potion of Clarity, and Potion of Magic Protection (actually this is even more powerful than the 5th lvl spell). Not to mention that Potion of Absorption already granted 100% res to an element on top of +10 bonus to AC vs crushing weapons. It's quite easy though (imo) to reach 100% resistances anyway by using one these potions along with Ring of Fire Resistance, Boots of the North and Boots of Grounding. I don't know if this is a pro for one solution or the other. If I know Ardanis he's suggesting 100% resistances for the only reason I'd do the same: protection from spell effects a la SR. That would make these potions hugely more effectivo imo, especially if used by mages and combined with Stoneskin. Potion of Absorbtion Blood of Barbarian - Cost 750 - 5 turns, immunity to backstab, +15% phys res, not by barbarian* yes, borrowed from IA Are you trying to get me killed? "Stoling ideas" from IA means looking for troubles!! Jokes aside, I suggested the same without knowing IA so well. Continuing with my devil's advocate role:- immunity to backstab can also be "appropriate" for Potion of Perception. "Absorption" doesn't hint to "backstab immunity" though, and I don't know if players like the idea to change this potion name. - I see why you'd prevent this potion from being used by barbarians, but at the same time they should be the very first candidates to use it from a roleplaying point of view imo. Potion of Magic Shielding Cost 1500 - 3 turns, +50% fire/cold/elec/acid/magic, +20 savesDoes it exist a "critical fail" for saves too? Potion of Invulnerability Cost: 1200Duration: 5 Effect: AC=0, +5 saves, warrior only ------------------------------------------------ (750) Am I the only one who don't like this potion? It does strike me as grant "invulnerability" at all. Potion of Defense Cost: 700Duration: 10 Effect: AC=0 ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Barkskin (400) 10 turns, +3 AC I suppose you're thinking about possible solutions to slightly "limit" it, as the name change may appear only a cosmetic touch, but you're surely suggesting it to have me block the effect from stacking with the same spell. Am I wrong? Potion of Magic Blocking Cost: 1500Duration: 0.5 Effect: immunity to 1-9 (!!!) spell levels ------------------------------------------------ I think this potion is almost broken, as the description says it grants immunity from spells up to 5th lvl, but it actually grants protection from spells up to 9th lvl, which is seems quite overpowered. At the same time though it lasts only 5 rounds, and if properly implemented it has some serious drawbacks too (dispel any buffs, and make you immune to friendly spells for the duration). Technically speaking, the dispel opcode is set to a strange value. Does it really dispel only 5th lvl or lower spells on the user when used? Whether we decide to fix it as per description, or making it as a complete protection I have to add a lot of Protection from Spell effects, because as of now a user can still cast buffs on himself, which is clearly wrong. Potion of Magic Protection Cost: 1000Duration: 10 Effect: +50% MR ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Magic Resistance (1000) 3 turns, +30% MR ___NON-DISPELLABLE___ I'm not against lowering the magic resistance value (perhaps 40%), but why should we make it "non dispellable"? Potion of Stone Form Cost: 500Duration: 5 Effect: AC=0, DEX -3, +3 saves ------------------------------------------------ (750) +4 AC vs slashing/piercing/missile, -4 AC vs bludgeoning, -3 save vs breath, +3 to other saves * +1 stoneskin (?) Something like that yeah...this potion is quite tricky. Curative potions Potion of Healing Cost: 72Effect: +9 hp ------------------------------------------------ Cure Light Wounds (25) 1d8+5 = 6-13 = 9.5 As always you read in my mind...but I didn't suggested this because I think most players would like it. Am I wrong? Anyway, for prices I'd go with 50, 100, and 200 respectively, but the lesser one may indeed need to be quite cheap to remian appealing. Potion of Regeneration Cost: 500Duration: 3 turns Effect: 1hp/3sec regeneration ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Trollish Fortitude (400) a) 1 turn, 12hp/round b) 15 turns, 1hp/round * which is better? 12hp per round?! I can accept half that amount, but more is really too much, especially considering that a haste effect would make it a 24hp per round! A 1hp/sec would still mean 60hp in 1 turn which is still outstanding imo, and the same amount of vanilla's version. I'd like to know players opinions. Antidote Cost: 100Duration: n/a Effect: cure poison ------------------------------------------------ (100) 2 turns, cure poison, immunity to poison, 100% poison damage res I think antidote is as mundane as healing potions, and immunity to poison seems too powerful.I agree with mercurier, cure poison is enough imo. Elixir of Healing Cost: 250Duration: n/a Effect: cure poison, cure disease (!!!), +10 hp ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Purification (150) same but +15 hp I didn't knew it already cured diseases! They should have used more accurate descriptions! Then I think this potion is quite fine as it is, except perhaps the price if the old one seems too high. Combat potions Potion of Explosions Cost: 450Duration: n/a Effect: 6d6 fireball, save vs spells for half ------------------------------------------------ Fire Bomb (1000) 12d6 30' fireball, save vs breath for half * from NWN, maybe add it's fiery cloud (?) I don't know how rare this potion is in BG1, and if it can be found somewhere or only on stores, but 12d6 seems really overkill. Potion of Firebreath Cost: 250Duration: n/a Effect: 6d10 fire to single target, save vs breath for half ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Red Dragon Breath (750) Effect: 6d10 fire conus, save vs breath for half Adding a AoE a la SR's Burning Hands may be interesting, but damage output would have to be lowered imo. Oil of Fiery Burning Cost: 500Duration: n/a Effect: 3d4+3d6 fireball, save vs breath for 3d4 ------------------------------------------------ Alchemist's Fire (150) 1d8+2 5' fireball OR set melee weapon aflame - +1d4 fire, 0.5 turn Either solutions seem interesting. Miscellaneous potions Potion of Infravision Cost: 100Duration: 20 Effect: infravision ------------------------------------------------ Potion of Keen Sight (200) infravision, +5% critical, +1 thaco Nice...I was trying to figure out something myself like Ultravision or Blindsight. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Potion of fire/cold/elec resistance If I know Ardanis he's suggesting 100% resistances for the only reason I'd do the same: protection from spell effects a la SR. That would make these potions hugely more effectivo imo, especially if used by mages and combined with Stoneskin.Sort of, yes. Now that it was said, I can see the need to lower duration though. Potion of Magic Protection Otherwise this potion seems really useless, as the only time it's worth being used is when we're fighting wizards. Who love to dump dispels around like crazy. And while I can see a lich jumping up and down around Viconia who just has drunk this, I still believe these potions are more suited for fighters, who can't have layers of spell defenses like wizards do. Indeed, maybe restrict it to warriors only? Not that I'm happy about restrictions, but... Potion of Absorbtion I haven't thought about it, surely barbarians can receive a bit smaller bonus via .eff, indeed. As for backstab, well, I don't know. Until ToB there're only two ways to acquire immunity to BS - be a barb or cast SR's Clairvoyance. And since these potions are quite rare, I guess they may as well fit in here. No much AI screwing shoud happen. Potion of Defense but you're surely suggesting it to have me block the effect from stacking with the same spell. Am I wrong?I don't know. In a world of sectypes in shouldn't be an issue, but... Perhaps keeping it's name is a lesser evil. Potion of Regeneration My point was to make the imbuer 'immune' to damage for a short time, so that they can keep fighting without losing time to drink a bottle. Reduce it's duration to 6 rounds? Well, as you've said, let's hear what others have to say. Antidote Imo cure poison and nothing else makes this potion very dumb. Especially when immunity to it isn't too uncommon among party members and when there's Elixir. Oil of Fiery Burning Actually I meant being able to choose whether to throw it into a mob or to imbue a weapon. Two ability headers. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 Potion of Magic Protection Otherwise this potion seems really useless, as the only time it's worth being used is when we're fighting wizards. Who love to dump dispels around like crazy. And while I can see a lich jumping up and down around Viconia who just has drunk this, I still believe these potions are more suited for fighters, who can't have layers of spell defenses like wizards do. Indeed, maybe restrict it to warriors only? Not that I'm happy about restrictions, but...The issue about dispellability of potion's effects is quite important indeed. Conceptually I don't like it, but I was thinking about making potions take into account the user's level. What do you think about it? Anyway, making this potion's effects non dispellable is too exploitable imo, and Viconia is the best example. I don't think SCS mages cast Dispel so often, they usually do it at the start of a fight, and using this potion in the middle of it would still be quite effective. Anyway, you do have a point. I don't like restrictions on potions at all, and even less when I think that it makes multi-dual F/M even more appealing than they already are. Potion of Absorbtion I haven't thought about it, surely barbarians can receive a bit smaller bonus via .eff, indeed.As for backstab, well, I don't know. Until ToB there're only two ways to acquire immunity to BS - be a barb or cast SR's Clairvoyance. And since these potions are quite rare, I guess they may as well fit in here. No much AI screwing shoud happen. Just that you seem to know IA, how does it handle the 100%+ physical resistance issue? Does your suggested potion can be used by a barbarian together with Hardiness? That would be an easy 80% resistance, and vanilla's Defender of Easthaven would be enough to reach the 100%. My solution would be to make this potion not stack with Hardiness (Potion of Hardiness ), in which case even IA's 20% value may not seem overpowered. Potion of Defense ...you're surely suggesting it (Barkskin) to have me block the effect from stacking with the same spell. Am I wrong?I don't know. In a world of sectypes in shouldn't be an issue, but... Perhaps keeping it's name is a lesser evil.Secondary Type? Making it not stack with Barkskin is as easy as done, especially because I was probably going to make most potions work via .spl files anyway for various reasons. If you ask me I quite like your suggestion (it also adds a cosmetic feature), but as always I'd like to have at least few other opinions. Potion of Regeneration My point was to make the imbuer 'immune' to damage for a short time, so that they can keep fighting without losing time to drink a bottle. Reduce it's duration to 6 rounds? Well, as you've said, let's hear what others have to say.Now I understand your point...still I consider it "exploitable", and I'd prefer regeneration rate more in line with the existing ones. Antidote Imo cure poison and nothing else makes this potion very dumb. Especially when immunity to it isn't too uncommon among party members and when there's Elixir.Well, the quite noticeable advantage imo is that Elixir of Healing should cost three times more than this potion, and most of the times you only need to cure poisons (diseases are quite rare, and 10 hit points are not such a huge factor in BG2). You should consider this potion a very common one, like Potion of Healing. P.S I was thinking about replacing Elixir's 10hp with cure blindness/deafness (as per Cure Disease), but I fear it would cheapen a spell such as Power Word Blind too much. What do you think? Oil of Fiery Burning Actually I meant being able to choose whether to throw it into a mob or to imbue a weapon. Two ability headers.Ohhh, nice. For AI's sake I'd probably prefer to keep a single header (and this would also keep Ring of Fire Control's feature much more unique). Link to comment
yarpen Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 In my opinion you should go on idea of diversion between elixirs and oils. Elixirs - cheap - quick - strong effect (let's say 80% of immunity) - short duration (4-8 rounds) Oil - a bit more expensive - needs a round or two to work - weaker effect (40-50%) - long duration (1-4 turns) And still when I see your elixir prices it makes me sad. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Potion of Magic Protection I was thinking about making potions take into account the user's level. What do you think about it?I think it still would be better off undispellable. But who knows...Btw I just have thought of it - how dispel chance is calculated when the target has multiple effects of different power? Potion of Absorbtion Just that you seem to know IAYou credit me with too much knowledge. I've played it over 2 years ago and don't remember a lot. I know not whether it even tries to cap phys res at all. Regarding 100% issue, my approximations are like this - 20% innate + 30% hardiness + 10% PoA = 60% for barbs 0% innate + 40% hardiness + 15% PoA = 55% for the rest That is, if KR is going to tweak Hardiness. Otherwise, well, 70% + DoE + Fortress Shield + RoEC = golem. Potion of Defense Ah, I see now what you mean. Guess it's the best way then, yes. Antidote I would use EoH over it, for the sake of restoring a portion of lost hp. Then what about it healing ~10 hp, as EoH currently does? It's still a lot more expensive to cure oneself than using normal healing potions. Elixir of Healing P.S I was thinking about replacing Elixir's 10hp with cure blindness/deafness (as per Cure Disease), but I fear it would cheapen a spell such as Power Word Blind too much. What do you think?Why not? I would add cure silence as well, but it may become too powerful then. Or maybe not, since IIRC there's no way to remove silence short of casting Heal or Dispel.Then again, the price can be raised to 500-700 and we'll have a good and unique thing to play with. Oil of Fiery Burning For AI's sake I'd probably prefer to keep a single headerAI can use scrolls just fine. I believe when ordered to ~UseItem()~ it uses the first header. Potions of Giants Strength I've thought a bit more, and turning them into +x to thaco/damage does sound good. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 In my opinion you should go on idea of diversion between elixirs and oils. Elixirs - cheap - quick - strong effect (let's say 80% of immunity) - short duration (4-8 rounds) Oil - a bit more expensive - needs a round or two to work - weaker effect (40-50%) - long duration (1-4 turns) I don't understand...there's only one Elixir and two oils...are you suggesting to make a whole new system with two type of potion for each potion? And still when I see your elixir prices it makes me sad.Well, how much would you want to pay for Elixir of Healing? Considering that it's a 'cure disease' (3rd level spell) + 'cure poison' (2nd level spell) + 'cure light wounds' (1st level spell) in one I cannot make it too cheap. Potion of Magic Protection I was thinking about making potions take into account the user's level. What do you think about it?I think it still would be better off undispellable. But who knows...Btw I just have thought of it - how dispel chance is calculated when the target has multiple effects of different power? I don't know. Anyway, I'm quite against making this potion's effects undispellable when I think about things like:* Viconia + this potion = undispellable immunity to magic! * Carsomyr + Lum's Machine bonus + Hell Trials bonus + this potion = crazy undispellable resistance Aren't you afraid of these things? Add Resist Magic HLA to the mix and have fun! Perhaps using 'set' magic resistance instead of 'increment' we may at least avoid the most noticeable issue. Potion of Absorbtion Regarding 100% issue, my approximations are like this - 20% innate + 30% hardiness + 10% PoA = 60% for barbs 0% innate + 40% hardiness + 15% PoA = 55% for the rest That is, if KR is going to tweak Hardiness. Otherwise, well, 70% + DoE + Fortress Shield + RoEC = golem. I'd like to point out that my personal opinion on physical resistance is that as long as we don't reach 100%+ I'm fine. I can live with 90% for 10 rounds because if a mage can be completely immune to everything via spells I don't find unappropriate at all to have epic level barbarians be as resistant as an golem for a limited amount of time. Don't you agree? That being said, from a conceptual point of view I don't understand why Hardiness should be less effective for barbarians, actually it should be the opposite. The problem imo is that Hardiness has a really too high value for something which lasts quite long and it's not dispellable. As I said, the only solution which doesn't involve HLA changes is making it not stack with everything (e.g. no Armor of Faith, no Potion of Absorption) One possible change I was thinking about for KR was to completely replace Hardiness for Barbarians and keep it as fighter-only ability, with the followinf pattern: * Fighter: Thoughness (prerequisite HLA) ---> Hardiness (+40% physical resistance for 1 turn) * Barbarian: Thoughness (prerequisite HLA) ---> Hardened Skin (permanent +5% physical resistance, can be selected up to 4 times) Antidote I would use EoH over it, for the sake of restoring a portion of lost hp. Then what about it healing ~10 hp, as EoH currently does? It's still a lot more expensive to cure oneself than using normal healing potions.Why don't you like the cheap Antidote so much? I prefer it to reamain really cheap and use it along with Potion of Healing instead of having it work as both potions in one at a higher price. Elixir of Healing P.S I was thinking about replacing Elixir's 10hp with cure blindness/deafness (as per Cure Disease), but I fear it would cheapen a spell such as Power Word Blind too much. What do you think?Why not? I would add cure silence as well, but it may become too powerful then. Or maybe not, since IIRC there's no way to remove silence short of casting Heal or Dispel.Then again, the price can be raised to 500-700 and we'll have a good and unique thing to play with. Mmm...it seems really too much for a single potion. The list of effects it would nullify is really too long:- poison (envenomed weapon, Poison spell, etc.) - disease (Contagion, Dolorous Decay, Mummy Rot, etc.) - blindness (making PW Blindness almost uneffective) - deafness - silence (making PW Silence almost uneffective) Not to mention Silence doesn't seem something curable in a similar way than poison/disease, does it? - silince Oil of Fiery Burning For AI's sake I'd probably prefer to keep a single headerAI can use scrolls just fine. I believe when ordered to ~UseItem()~ it uses the first header.Ok, then I'll think about it. Potions of Giants Strength I've thought a bit more, and turning them into +x to thaco/damage does sound good.Why? I think their current behaviour is fine for potions. Instead I was going to suggest to make Potion of Strength use a +x thac0/damage. Link to comment
aVENGER_(RR) Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Just a small note concerning the potion revision. You should be aware that any drastic changes applied to potions will affect the AI behavior in some way, especially for mods whose opponents use potions frequently (i.e. RR and SCSII). The AI might not be always affected adversly but, in general, it expects potions to function as per the original description, and scripts usually have appropriate checks in place to prevent needlessly consuming multiple potions of the same type (i.e. don't drink a Potion of Magic Shielding if Magic Damage Resistance => 50). Potion of Magic Blocking ...I have to add a lot of Protection from Spell effects, because as of now a user can still cast buffs on himself, which is clearly wrong. I'd advise against that. RR's Aran Linvail uses this potion on himself to dispel hostile spell effects (mainly Insect Plague) and I think some of SCSII's opponents use them in a similar manner as well. Therefore, making this potion protect the user from his own spells would cause AI issues for both mods. It might be better to simply turn it into a Potion of Magic Dispelling as seen in IWD2. Potion of Absorbtion...as for backstab, well, I don't know. Until ToB there're only two ways to acquire immunity to BS - be a barb or cast SR's Clairvoyance. And since these potions are quite rare, I guess they may as well fit in here. No much AI screwing shoud happen. Backstab immunity can be detected via stat #175 as noted here. RR's AI already does this and I've pointed it out to DavidW a while ago as well. Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Potion of Magic Blocking ...I have to add a lot of Protection from Spell effects, because as of now a user can still cast buffs on himself, which is clearly wrong. I'd advise against that. RR's Aran Linvail uses this potion on himself to dispel hostile spell effects (mainly Insect Plague) and I think some of SCSII's opponents use them in a similar manner as well. Therefore, making this potion protect the user from his own spells would cause AI issues for both mods. It might be better to simply turn it into a Potion of Magic Dispelling as seen in IWD2. But does the RR's Aran Linvail use the 1st to 5th level spells to defend himself, as the potion would be just against those effects, being immune to spells like: Mirror Image, Shield... Minor Spell Turning, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield. He could still use the PfMW and Contingency, Spell Deflection etc. spells. PS, all the liches should be immune to those spells as well. Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Just a small note concerning the potion revision. You should be aware that any drastic changes applied to potions will affect the AI behavior in some way, especially for mods whose opponents use potions frequently (i.e. RR and SCSII). The AI might not be always affected adversly but, in general, it expects potions to function as per the original description, and scripts usually have appropriate checks in place to prevent needlessly consuming multiple potions of the same type (i.e. don't drink a Potion of Magic Shielding if Magic Damage Resistance => 50).I always take such things into account, it's actually one of the main issues to handle. Actually vanilla's Potion of Magic Shielding stack, but I'm glad RR doesn't exploit it as obtaining complete immunity to elemental/magic damage with two potions is too cheap imo. It also means I can "fix" it to make it not stack, right? Potion of Magic Blocking ...I have to add a lot of Protection from Spell effects, because as of now a user can still cast buffs on himself, which is clearly wrong.I'd advise against that. RR's Aran Linvail uses this potion on himself to dispel hostile spell effects (mainly Insect Plague) and I think some of SCSII's opponents use them in a similar manner as well. Therefore, making this potion protect the user from his own spells would cause AI issues for both mods. It might be better to simply turn it into a Potion of Magic Dispelling as seen in IWD2. But does the RR's Aran Linvail use the 1st to 5th level spells to defend himself, as the potion would be just against those effects, being immune to spells like: Mirror Image, Shield... Minor Spell Turning, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield. He could still use the PfMW and Contingency, Spell Deflection etc. spells.I was going to ask the same. Does RR's AI exploit how the potion was implemented? Because it's quite clear the potion should prevent those spells and work as a sort of limited Anti-magic shell. Not to mention that for no apparent reason the potion actually protects from spells up to 9th level despite the description says it should protect only up to 5th! At least this aspect has to be restored imo if the dispel effect works as intended, because I don't know if it really doesn't dispel spells of 6th or higher level. Can you confirm this? P.S Dispelling insect is amongst the silliest things ever imo. It's like dispelling a wolf with a successful dispel! Am I the only one who thinks that? PS, all the liches should be immune to those spells as well.I don't agree with this, I think liches immunity works just like a Greater Globe of Invulnerability. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.