Why is it inappropriate to address

[Domi]

I got a point of critique that puzzles me to no end. A reviewer seemed to be really ticked off by characters reffering to Kivan as an 'elf' (Ie : So you have returned, elf.) Is there something Anglophone related that makes such an addressing rude or inappropriate in some way? Does it make an English speaker think of racisism or something? I felt very natural to me, but if it is read as a negative, I would like change it.

[Kish]

I got a point of critique that puzzles me to no end. A reviewer seemed to be really ticked off by characters reffering to Kivan as an 'elf' (Ie : So you have returned, elf.) Is there something Anglophone related that makes such an addressing rude or inappropriate in some way? Does it make an English speaker think of racisism or something? I felt very natural to me, but if it is read as a negative, I would like change it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would generally be considered rude, disdainful, or (most likely) both to address someone by his/her species in English, yes. Someone who wanted to be polite would call Kivan by his name or, if the speaker didn't know his name, just not call him anything.

[Domi]

OK, I see. I will edit it out. A new thing every day. And to me it sounded so bloody romantic. I will try Quessir in a few cases, Kivan and nothing.

[Bri]

Is there something Anglophone related that makes such an addressing rude or inappropriate in some way? Does it make an English speaker think of racisism or something?

 

Kish is right that in 99 times out 100 it would sound derogatary. When spoken, someone would put emphasis on 'elf'

 

This would sound like, "So you have returned, elf"

 

Now, this is a case where voice acting would come in handy...and you could make it sound playful, and thus not combative.

[Domi]

Nope, no voice acting. I will just take it out, if it sounds offensive.

[Domi]

Uhm, on a related note, is it OK to call him an 'elf' in a descriptive text? Ie (you sigh quietly but do not interrupt the elf). Or should it be Kivan as well?

[Bri]

Uhm, on a related note, is it OK to call him an 'elf' in a descriptive text? Ie (you sigh quietly but do not interrupt the elf). Or should it be Kivan as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is perfectly fine

 

It is only when a person is directly addressed that a problem arises, and you add a label like 'elf' would it be derogatary.

 

Also, you could soften the previous problem text with something like "I see you have returned my elf."

 

It's really hard to explain, but in English when you isolate the individual addressed like that, and you call them by 'race' (or 'sex'), it is usually meant to give offense.

 

If it helps, imagine if you put in woman in the place of elf. Then it would sound offensive to one's ear.

 

So you have returned, elf

 

So you have returned, woman

[Domi]

Thank you, Bri. Please, bear with me, this one got me out of bed at 6 am today and I formulated a few more questions re: addressing in the fantasy setting:

 

- Addressing by vocation: druid, ranger, bard, etc (Ie "Strike us a song, bard. Is that your opinion, druid? Are you sulking again, ranger?) - is it just as rude as adressing by race/sex?

 

- What if vocation does not correspond exactly to the character sheet, ie healer, wizard, ministrel, sorceress? (You broke your mirror, sorceress)

 

- What about lady/lord (without 'my') - Davis uses it a lot when Falco talks to Helena-Justina, which I thought gave it a bit of a disrespectful but fond falvor

 

- Does adding a praising noun (fellow ranger) or ajective (wise druid) generally negates the derogatory flavor? Or a more complicated construction, such as: - 'Tell me, my good elf'?

 

- Will using 'my' or 'dear' carry a romantic flavor (my sorceress, dear elf)?

[NiGHTMARE]

Often it'll depend on the tone of voice the speaker is using, which obviously can be difficult to make clear in written dialogue.

 

"Strike us a song, bard. Is that your opinion, druid? Are you sulking again, ranger?" - could imply disinterest in or even dislike of the person (i.e. they can't even be bothered to remember that person's name), although it may well be merely feigned disinterest/dislike. Alternatively, such terms could easily be used in an affectionate manner.

 

"You broke your mirror, sorceress" - not every mage will think of herself as a mage; many will call themselves wizard, wizardess, witch, sorceress, and so on. Whether they expect others to address them by their personally preferred label depends entirely on who they are, and whether someone else considers not addressing them by their preferred label to be disrespectful depends entirely on that person is as well .

 

"Lord/Lady" - again this implies disinterest, but it could well be false. The classic example is detective stories - the PI will continuously address his stunningly beautiful potential employer as "lady", yet later in the story the two inevitably end up in bed together. If used by someone of low civil standing, e.g. a beggar or a street urchin, they probably mean it in a respectful way, just as someone of a more higher standing would use "sir/madam".

 

"Fellow ranger" - if spoken by a ranger, this implies a sense of comradeship between the two, and probably wouldn't be used in a negative manner. If spoken by a non-ranger it could have all kinds of meanings, e.g. "you are a fellow ranger of the great Valygar? Truly it is an honour to meet you" vs. "ah, I was wondering how long it would take that fool Minsc's fellow ranger to arrive".

 

"Wise druid" - could be said in a sarcastic manner, especially if said as "o wise druid". Or it could be said out of respect, or even reverence.

 

"My sorceress" - could be romantic, but could also be out of loyalty, e.g. the person speaking is the sorceress' servant, or had his life saved by her.

 

"Dear elf" - such a phrase is most likely to be used in a patronizing fashion, though I'm sure there could be a few exceptions.

[Hendryk]

It may help to think in RL analogies. At what times and in what tone or what circumstances might you address your accountant as "Accountant"? The problem with tags, race, gender, profession or whatever, is that, in modern English, they implicitly depersonalize the person spoken to. Qualifiers may change the emotional valence (from indifference or mild hostility to friendly teasing) but would never do as a simple means of address. Note, too, that 100 years ago, titles and social gradations imposed - in England certainly and even in America to a lesser degree - an etiquette of modes of address which no longer applies except in the most formal of circumstances or as comedy. Note also that different fantasy writers may treat this matter in different ways in their worlds - largely, it seems, in a search for something new and mildly distinctive for their characters to say.

 

Finally, in the game itself, modes of address are used to characterize the speaker; my lord or lady being appropriate to a lowly NPC, Citizen to a soldier or magistrate, boy/girl to an older, well-established figure and so on. So really you can settle into one style to suit yourself but you probably shouldn't mix styles - save for specific effect - by having the PC routinely call Kivan by name in one block and then elf or ranger in the next.

[Bri]

Thank you, Bri.

 

You're welcome. Sorry if it got you up early in the morning though.

 

And don't think you are alone in this Domi. Too many native speakers also can have a problem with this. The simple fact is that this is more of a nuance thing than anything else.

 

As others have mentioned, a lot just depends on the tone you are working for...that's why both me and Kish originally said a lot also depended on what you are looking for as well as the circumstances taking place.

 

Ugh, I know that is just muddying the waters...

 

For example:

 

Addressing by vocation: druid, ranger, bard, etc (Ie "Strike us a song, bard. Is that your opinion, druid? Are you sulking again, ranger?) - is it just as rude as adressing by race/sex?

 

This would depend. Let's just look at the "Strike us a song, bard!"

 

Now, if you just returned from a successful campaign/adventure/etc. then it would definitely not be offensive since you are asking the bard to help celebrate.

 

On the other hand, if the bard had done something (such as break out in song and dance) that brought an entire orc tribe on your heads...then it would be sarcasm.

 

If you use, "Is that your opinion, druid?" that would also depend on the circumstances. If there is a genuine investigation going on for example, or the person just joined your party, then it wouldn't be offensive. However, if the PC and the druid didn't get along, or the character just didn't like druids...then it would be slightly antagonistic.

 

"Are you sulking again, ranger?" This one could safely fall into antagonizing...for if you comment on someone sulking, most of the time you have little patience for that person.

 

What if vocation does not correspond exactly to the character sheet, ie healer, wizard, ministrel, sorceress? (You broke your mirror, sorceress

 

Once again, it depends on the scene, and situation. Most of the time, you are safe with general statements like this though. For example, with the sorceress...say she was busy casting a spell, or otherwise occupied...well, if she had a servant, he would certainly use the title and it wouldn't be antagonistic. If the female mage, however, had struck her magic mirror with her fist, and broke it...and if she was being taught by an older sorcereress, then it very well could be sarcastic.

 

What about lady/lord (without 'my') - Davis uses it a lot when Falco talks to Helena-Justina, which I thought gave it a bit of a disrespectful but fond falvor

Like the vocation title above, it actually depends on scene and situation. Often, Lord/Lady is also just used as generic honorific (as Nightmare pointed out), instead of using Sir/Madam.

 

If you want a good example of insincerity...Monty Python's Holy Grail is a good example of that ;-)

 

"My sorceress" - could be romantic, but could also be out of loyalty, e.g. the person speaking is the sorceress' servant, or had his life saved by her.

 

"Dear elf" - such a phrase is most likely to be used in a patronizing fashion, though I'm sure there could be a few exceptions.

 

Much like your other questions (and answered by Hendryk and Nightmare), this certainly depends on the situation.

 

After all, supervillains ala James Bond frequently use, "My dear Mr. Bond" when they have him strapped to a deathtrap.

 

 

For what it is worth Domi, I don't think I would worry too much about this. Most of this depends on the scene that is set up, and what type of conversation is going on. And if you only had one comment, that's actually fairly good.

 

That was also why I asked if you planned on new voicing or what not...as has been driven into the ground by now, most of this depends on the tone of voice that is desired...and sometimes that isn't enough either. Two people could look at the same sentence, and one could think 'Ah, this is used sarcastically..." while the other could say, "Oh, isn't that sweet!"

[Domi]

I think I will be doing away with all the addresses and turning them into names or empty spots then, it is easier that way. And nope, lol, it was not the only point of critisism, but it was something I did not know how to correct. And I actually thought it was a good thing to vary the addresses, so it would not be Kivan, Kivan and Kivan all the time... (sighs) O, well.

[Bri]

I think I will be doing away with all the addresses and turning them into names or empty spots then, it is easier that way. And nope, lol, it was not the only point of critisism, but it was something I did not know how to correct. And I actually thought it was a good thing to vary the addresses, so it would not be Kivan, Kivan and Kivan all the time... (sighs) O, well.

 

Domi, I think that is too radical of an action to take. If anything, varying the addresses IS a good idea. By keeping it all "Kivan, Kivan, Kivan", it would make it a bit pedantic.

 

If you are particularly concerned, I am more than happy to take a glance at the dialogue and let you know what I think.

 

However, as I said, I think this wasn't a particularly common case, and something native writers can get into.

[Domi]

Thank you, Bri, I appreciate it. I will probably ask my proofreaders to check it routinely. I guess, as you have pointed out, it is connected with the person's mindset and general context.

[Rabain]

For variation you are always safe by making the address a positive:

 

So you have returned, kind elf.

 

Or use "good sir", "good man/woman" . Also you can substitute adjectives that have a positive flavour, "doughty ranger", "sturdy dwarf", "honourable knight" etc.

 

This way you make sure the reader cannot misconstrue the meaning.