please share your spellcasting strategies for SCSII

[Lemernis]

I'm curious as to how other players use their spellcasters to counter SCSII's enemy mages and priests. I hope to learn something here from others because I tend to find something that works well enough and then get lazy by (over)relying on it. I'm sure I could be using a whole lot of spells much more cleverly than I have been.

 

I'll make an assumption from the getgo: before your party's spellcasters go on the offensive most players take care of some essentials. This involves casting spells to protect your own mages, and quicklly casting spells to remove enemy spell protections. And I'd like to know how you all manage this. For example,

 

- Do you tend to weight your spell routines heavily with a lot of spell protections for your mages, thus hoping to assure that you'll stand the best chance of your mage successfully casting his or her spells? Do you load up on this type of spell?

 

- Or do you tend to invest more heavily in casting spells that remove enemy spell protections immediately, in the hope of neutralizing enemy spellcasters as quickly as possible but thereby then assuming higher risk by virtue of leaving your mages more vulnerable?

 

- Or do you use a fairly even blend of both those types of spells? (i.e. protections for you own mages, and protection removing spells against enemies)

 

And then more generally, which spellcasting routines have you found effective for various types of opponents?

 

***

 

First off, I admit that I do rely on meta-knowledge of an upcoming battle. If it's a really tough one I'll buff the party first. And I do not give the enemy the same advantage. That is, I do not install enemy spellcaster pre-buffs. I find the battles hard enough just with Improved General AI, Better calls for hlpe, Potions for NPCs, and Smarter Mages and Smarter Priests (both with option 3--no prebuffs). That is plenty of challenge for me. (I also do not have the various smarter creature types and bosses installed.)

 

Myself, I use minimal spell protections on my own mages, and very aggressively seek to neutralize enemy spellcasters as quickly as possible by removing the enemy's protections. I want as many spell slots open as possible for impairing enemy spellscasters and then trying to finish them off.

 

For their own protections, my mages typically always cast Stoneskin (usually just one, but they do stack, right? if so I could use more I guess) and Ghost Armor. Depending on the type of battle ahead I will typically buff with Resist Fear, Chaotic Commands, and Negative Plane Protection. When my mages get to higher levels I will sometimes use Simulacrum and set up Contingencies to try to protect them better should they go down to 50% HP. And of course the party is hasted for the toughest battles. But that's pretty much it (for mages).

 

I tend not to bother with spells such as Blur, Mirror Image, Reflected Image, Minor Spell Deflection, Protection from (Element), Protection from Normal Missiles, Spell Thrust, Fireshield, Minor Spell Turning, Protection from Acid or Electricity, Protection from Normal Weapons, Improved Invisibility, Minor and full Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Project Image, Mislead, Spell Turning, Protection from Energy and Magical Energy, and Absolute Immunity.

 

That may not be smart of me, btw. I'm just not very familiar with those spells and don't know how effective the above spells are... Well, except for seeing how powerful SCSII's combo of Improved Invisibility and Globe of Invulnerability is.

 

I do ometimes use Spell Sequencer (not so much the Minor one, though), Spell Trigger, and Chain Contingency. But I would appreciate advise on some of the best combinations you all have found for these.

 

My basic strategy is to very aggressively try to impair enemy mages and priests as quickly as possible. I use Greater Malison and Glitterdust (and Doom from priests) to lower their saving throws. Spook I have also recently found fits nicely into that regimen (a total -16 to savings throws if all three mage spells are successful, plus the enemy can be blinded and panicked). I use Remove Magic, Breach, Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Lower Resistance to strip their protections. I use Dispell Magic only when all else fails because it so often removes my party's buffs (while the enemy saves against it!)

 

Offensively, I use the following a lot:

 

* Magic Missile

* Chromatic Orb (though when targets get petrified, care has to be taken to prevent shattering them and losing their loot drop)

* Emotion and Chaos (outstanding for low to mid level mobs)

* Slow

* Spook (as part of regimen mentioned above)

* Dire Charm

* Domination

* Hold Person or Monster

* Contagion (nice in conjuction with priest's Poison)

* Vampiric Touch

* Polymorph Other (just for being so satisfying when it works)

* Death Spell

* Sphere of Chaos and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting

* Power Word: Stun

* Power Word: Blind

* Power Word: Kill

* Finger of Death

* Mord's Sword and higher level Summoning

[coaster]

I use a bit of both. For a F/M, I will use stoneskin, then the 1-turn per level spells (eg. Protection from Magical Energy) then 3-rounds per level spells (eg. Protection from Fire, Mirror Image) then wrap up with the 1-round per level spells (usually finishing off with SI:Abjuration to protect me from dispel/remove magic & then Improved Invisibility). Overkill perhaps but sometimes you need it! I will also sometimes go into battle with True Sight already active to save casting it when fighting. Once I have the Staff of the Magi I'll also always cast Spell Trap from it because of the long duration, just after I've stoneskinned.

 

I never use Spell Shield because it's bugged.

 

Remove Magic is the best debuffer out there if you're high enough level and your enemies don't have SI:Abjuration running. But if I know I absolutely must get spell protections down I'll memorise Spellstrike, although usually lesser spells such as Khelben's Warding Whip/Pierce Shield etc will do the job.

 

This tends to be how I play it with an F/M where the emphasis is on self-preservation during melee/removing enemy protections so they can be chopped into little pieces. With a sorc or mage character I'd have more offensive spells memorised also - especially the all-conquering Horrid Wilting, Sunfire (great for solo play), and Dragon's Breath. Summons - I don't usually bother with anything except Mordy swords and Planetars.

[Guest Guest]

Will such strategies need to change if Spell Revisions is installed?

[Lemernis]

Let me narrow this down to a simpler question:

 

How do you all deal with enemy mage spell protections of Improved Invisibility and Minor or full Globe of Invulnerability?

 

I'm using Oracle now but isn't dispelling Improved Invisibility. I'm trying to figure out if this is a bug, or if other spell buffs are somehow protecting against Oracle...

 

Interestingly, the party is able to target enemies thus protected with physical attacks. I guess this is because of the shimmering outline that Improved Invisibility produces? Many+ 3 weapons aren't having any effect, btw--only a few. But anyway, the party's spellcasters are unable to target such enemies with their spells.

 

Minor or full Globe of Invulnerability will evidently prevent Glitterdust from settling on, or outlining via negative space, the protective sphere that envelops its caster. Fair enough.

 

Minor Globe can be brought down with Spell Thrust. But in order to successfully cast that, I first have to dispel Improved Invisibility! And I have been unable to do that.

 

For Globe of Invulnerability I don't like using Dispel Magic because it often risks removing my tanks' buffs. But I can now target such mages individually with Pierce Magic. However, once again, I can't target the enemy with that spell until I dispell Globe of Invulnerability.

 

I guess my question boils down to this: why isn't Oracle dispelling Improved Invisibility? Do SCSII's mages use Spell Immunity: Divination?

 

My SCSII setup:

 

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6020 // Potions for NPCs -> All unused potions on dead enemies are retrievable by the party: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6162 // Smarter Priests -> Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

[Jarno Mikkola]

Minor Globe can be brought down with Spell Thrust. But in order to successfully cast that, I first have to dispel Improved Invisibility! And I have been unable to do that.

...

My SCSII setup:

 

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6020 // Potions for NPCs -> All unused potions on dead enemies are retrievable by the party: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6162 // Smarter Priests -> Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

This is the reason why the SCS has the Component 1020 [Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility] and SCSII has the Component 2020 [Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility].

[Lemernis]

Ah! Okay! The component description didn't sound like something I would want to use, but I understand the context now. In reading it I was focusing on the part about small area of effect versus individual targeting. I thought it was a nerf, actually.

 

Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility

 

This component changes those spells which target a creature's spell defences (e.g. Secret Word, Spellstrike, Ruby Ray of Reversal - but not Breach) so as to give them a small area of effect rather than requiring them to be targetted on a specific creature. The idea of this component is that these spells can now be cast on enemy mages who are protected by Improved Invisibility - this makes the Improved Invisibility / Spell Immunity: Divination combination less overpowering.

 

The down side, of course, is that it is now possible to miss your target entirely with these spells. (Ideally I'd just have changed them so as to bypass improved invisibility directly, but that appears not to be possible in the Infinity Engine.)

 

The antimagic attacks of enemy mages will bypass Improved Invisibility even if you don't install this component.

 

So evidently the answer is, yes, enemy mages do buff with Spell Immunity: Divination.

 

A follow-up question:

 

If you don't have this component installed, how do you combat enemy mages' Improved Invisibility? Until now I've pretty much just had to outlast their spell attacks. Because without being able to target them with spells, they're free to cast with impunity, untouched until the Improved Invisibility duration expires.

[Wisp]

If you don't have this component installed, how do you combat enemy mages' Improved Invisibility? Until now I've pretty much just had to outlast their spell attacks. Because without being able to target them with spells, they're free to cast with impunity, untouched until the Improved Invisibility duration expires.

The thief skill Detect Illusions is essentially the only other way to combat this, short of waiting until II or SI:D expires.

[Lemernis]

Okay thanks, the difficulties I've been having are making much more sense now.

[Lemernis]

If you don't have this component installed, how do you combat enemy mages' Improved Invisibility? Until now I've pretty much just had to outlast their spell attacks. Because without being able to target them with spells, they're free to cast with impunity, untouched until the Improved Invisibility duration expires.

The thief skill Detect Illusions is essentially the only other way to combat this, short of waiting until II or SI:D expires.

 

So basically, unless you install components 1020 and 2020, it sounds like the strategy shifts toward

 

1) dumping points into your thief's Detect Illusion skill (Jan then becomes a valuable character),

 

2) having spellcasters buff with Abjuration spells to deflect/absorb enemy spells, and

 

3) protecting tanks from mind control spells via magic items, spells like Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear, and so forth.

 

Then essentially just sitting back and outlasting the attacks.

 

I guess you could summon monsters to try to get enemy mages to use their spells up faster...

 

What happens if you send just one character out protected by Otiluke's? Do SCS/SCSII mages detect that and then withhold casting their spell arsenal? But if accompanied by summons they would go after those creatures, no doubt.

 

I do respect that Improved Illusion/Globe of Invulnerability/Spell Immunity: Divination is a very clever tactic for an enemy mage to use. I'm just not sure that it gives the player the most satisfying gameplay experience... because in the first half of BGII you either have to go with the above mentioned components, or find a way to outlast enemy spell arsenals while you can do little in return offensively...

 

Maybe there's a smarter way to counter II/GoI/SI:D that I'm not seeing, though.

[Guest Guest]

Maybe there's a smarter way to counter II/GoI/SI:D that I'm not seeing, though.

Can't you use arrows of dispelling ? Not sure if these are available early in BG2, and not sure if those work against liches.

[2.72]

Can't you use arrows of dispelling ? Not sure if these are available early in BG2, and not sure if those work against liches.

 

Combat protections (except Stoneskin) should stop these, no? I don't know; I rarely use them. If the lich doesn't have any combat protections, just beat him to death.

 

Arrows of Dispelling are sold in Athkatla (Waukeen's Promenade, I think) unless you install the Improved Minor Encounters component. I disagree strongly with removing the arrows, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

About II+GoI+SI:Div: I'm stumped. It's worth noting that sometimes they use SI:Abj instead of GoI (to block Dispel Magic), so if I recall correctly Glitterdust works there. Also, Melf's Minute Meteors are +6 weapons, which makes them bypass all combat protections except for PfMW, I think.

[AzureDrag0n1]

Chain contingency bypasses invisibility. That is another method. Otherwise what I did for a while as I had a similar problem to yours was to use AoE attacks. Such as a combination of wand of cloudkill and web. Against the magic resistant I would use sunfire. Very useful against groups of Illithid and Drow.

[DrAzTiK]

Maybe there's a smarter way to counter II/GoI/SI:D that I'm not seeing, though.

Chaos (level5) works pretty well vs mages . ( exept liches or undead mages).

[Guest Cookiemole]

Just thought I'd mention a couple more strategies that I found useful.

 

The spells that mages use never protect them from all melee weapons. For instance, if they cast protection from magical weapons, you can beat on them with nonmagical weapons (requires some patience because you'll still have to deplete their stoneskins).

 

Protection from magical weapons: +1 through +infinity (+6 is the highest in TOB)

Mantle: 0 through +2

Improved mantle: 0 through +3

Absolute immunity: 0 through +5

 

If you read the dialog at the bottom, you'll be able to match an appropriate weapon to the melee protection they cast. Also, read the dialog to see if your attacks are getting through. If it says "weapon ineffective" then your attacks are being blocked. If it says "Hit" but doesn't report any damage, that means you still have to finish busting through their stoneskin.

 

Of course, liches are immune to normal weapons, so when they cast Protection from magical weapons that means no weapon can hit them....and if you avoided the breachable liches component like I did that pretty much means you have to wait for them to run out of that particular spell. Kind of pain, but liches are supposed to be badasses, right? Since you have prebuffing off, that could mean that they aren't fully protected from the other damage types when they appear; you might be able to nail them with something with an area of effect. If you have prebuffing on, they come in protected against all magical and elemental damage (spells that last a turn a level, so you're not gonna want to wait for them to run out) and protection from magical weapons. The first thing that runs out of course is the melee protection.

 

If you have a high-level druid or cleric/ranger, you can use Nature's Beauty to permanently blind spellcasters, liches included. The only enemy that this won't work against is rakshasas, since they are immune to spells of level 7 and lower. Not sure if people consider this cheesy or not, but you can actually cast this spell without breaking your own invisibility. It's really hard to get it off in a fight otherwise, since it has a long casting time. Liches of course can see through invisibility, so hopefully you can distract them with something else while you're casting. Anyways, once spellcasters are blind, they can only target units immediately adjacent to them. In this situtation, it's fun to toy around with them. Move next to them so they start casting something, then run away before they can finish! Before you know it, they'll be out of spells.

 

About the protection spells you cast on yourself: If you're lazy, you should at least use stoneskin + mirror image. Stoneskin doesn't stack, by the way. Mirror image is more useful than it has a right to be, as it protects you from both single-target and area of effect damage.

[Demivrgvs]

Will such strategies need to change if Spell Revisions is installed?

Just noticed this sorry. I suppose SR players may help you if you post this within SR forums, but I may say few things. Almost all strategies that worked without Spell Revisions should still work with SR installed as long as they didn't involved exploits commonly considered cheesy, or pure cheats.

 

You should have much more options with SR but I'll give you instead some examples of blocked exploits (some have been just mentioned by the previous poster) and nerfed spells:

- Mirror Image won't protect you from AoE spells anymore (only SR V3)

- you can't have Mislead's clones singing bard songs (only SR V3)

- you can't duplicate scrolls and and use quick items via Project Image and Simulacrum

- Horrid Wilting affects only living creatures as per PnP (thus undead such as liches are unaffected)

- Nature's Beauty won't cause permanent blindness with no save, as it was rightly considered very cheesy (In this case the spell has been radically changed)

- Chain Contingency can't be cast during 'game pause' anymore, and I was thinking about stopping it from being usable during a fight (you have to prepare it out of battle imo)

- Melf's Minute Meteors aren't uber +6 enchanted weapons anymore (e.g. they won't bypass Absolute Immunity anymore)

 

As I said though, SR should actually give you more options rather than limiting them.