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Ranged swashbuckler kit?


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#16 CamDawg

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 05:27 AM

Yes, it's a perfect kit... for powergamers. Imoen can't effectively backstab as it is, and her thieving abilities are, for the most part, lacking. Why don't we toss in "no traps?" :D It's basically bonus THAC0, damage, stars and called shot with no downside.

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#17 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 05:40 AM

Yes, it's a perfect kit... for powergamers. Imoen can't effectively backstab as it is, and her thieving abilities are, for the most part, lacking. Why don't we toss in "no traps?" :D It's basically bonus THAC0, damage, stars and called shot with no downside.

Ok, fair point... Let's she how we can adjust it:

SHARPSHOOTER
Class: Thief
Race: Any
Alignment: Any except Lawful Good

ADVANTAGES:

  • Can reach Whatever two stars is called... Specialisation? (++) in any missile weapon a Thief can use (Short Bow, Crossbow, Sling, Darts)


  • +1 to THAC0 and Damage with missile weapons every 4 levels
DISADVANTAGES:
  • Only 20 Thieving Points to distribute per level


  • No backstab


Thoughts?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 21 April 2004 - 05:41 AM.

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#18 Andyr

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 06:10 AM

The thac0 and damage bonuses are too much. At level 40 that's +10 to each... I'd just suggest allowing Mastery (3 stars) instead.

No backstab is good. I'm not sure about thieving skills.
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#19 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 06:43 AM

How about every 7-8 levels?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 21 April 2004 - 06:44 AM.

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#20 BevH

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 12:19 PM

You could still do every 4 levels on the bonuses, but not have it start until say level 12? That would make it less overpowered.

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#21 SixOfSpades

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 01:05 PM

A lot of valid points here.

I agree, the Trap angle could use some serious weakening, but I'm not sure if I want to give them up entirely....so I nixed their Trap HLAs.

Imoen can't Backstab? You've obviously never used a STR girdle on her. Not to mention Weimer's uber Pixie Prick or aVENGER's nifty Short Sword of Backstabbing. Not to mention Timestop. And I never suggested the Sharpshooter kit be given to Imoen anyway (and even if it were, the only benefit she'd get from it is the ability to put +++ into Short Bow....at the rate of one star every 6 levels).

I'm sticking with the ability to reach Mastery and the Called Shot. I definitely want this to be a "what the Archer would be like as a Thief" kit.

My original rate at which the THAC0 and Damage bonuses are recieved was wrong. The Swashbuckler gets his bonuses every 5 levels, which is about the same (in terms of EXP required) as the Ranger Archer's every 3 levels. But remember that these Sharpshooter bonuses are coming off the base THAC0 of a Thief, not a Warrior, so don't run around assuming that a Sharpshooter is going to run around capping folks like Abazigal with every hit.

SHARPSHOOTER
Class: Thief
Race: Any
Alignment: Any except Lawful Good

ADVANTAGES:

  • Can reach Mastery (+++) in any missile weapon a Thief can use (Short Bow, Crossbow, Sling, Darts)

  • +1 to THAC0 and Damage with missile weapons every 5 levels

  • Special Ability of Called Shot every 6 levels

DISADVANTAGES:
  • Only 15 Thieving Points to distribute per level

  • Backstab Multiplier capped at x2

  • Does not gain ToB HLAs of Set Spike Trap, Set Time Trap, or Set Exploding Trap


Howzat?

#22 Userunfriendly

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 01:30 PM

i like it...

now how about someone making the kit, and best of all, adding cre files (as per the swishy imoen mini mod) so when you pick her up at spell hold, she is a sharpshooter/mage???

and please include daggers in the mastery selection...throwing daggers??? in my game im always has firetooth dagger... :D

#23 CamDawg

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 02:42 PM

Imoen can't Backstab? You've obviously never used a STR girdle on her. Not to mention Weimer's uber Pixie Prick or aVENGER's nifty Short Sword of Backstabbing.


I have; thanks to her lovely thief THAC0 that you mentioned, she still can't backstab. Also, making balance arguments based on mod content is not a good idea. If that's the case, the kit should be boosted significantly for Tactics. :D

And I never suggested the Sharpshooter kit be given to Imoen anyway


I confused your proposal with the "let's give Imoen a kit" posts above it. Apologies.

I agree, the Trap angle could use some serious weakening, but I'm not sure if I want to give them up entirely....so I nixed their Trap HLAs.


Sorry, this was meant in jest as Imoen is also ineffective in laying snares. Regardless, this disadvantage has no effect in an SoA game.

now how about someone making the kit, and best of all, adding cre files (as per the swishy imoen mini mod) so when you pick her up at spell hold, she is a sharpshooter/mage???


Go poke Idobek. :D

and please include daggers in the mastery selection...throwing daggers??? in my game im always has firetooth dagger... :D


Allowing extra stars in daggers would also grant the same bonuses to daggers in melee. Even though throwing daggers probably should be included, the compromise needed to achieve it is giving the kit a significant melee advantage.

I do think this version is a lot more balanced than the previous proposals. Someone refresh my memory--what's the difference between 2/3 stars for weapon profs?

Why is this Hypnotoad video so popu... ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD.


#24 BigRob

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 04:54 PM

I think that the attck/dmg bonuses go from +1/+2 to +3/+3. Attacks may increase, but I don't think so. PnP rules give a different list of abilities for missile weapon specialists and I don't know if BGII also does this, since those abilities might be hard to code into the game.....
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#25 Andyr

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 01:01 AM

The backstab and thief skill points are controlled by the usability value of the kit.

To cap Backstab, you'd want to use Swashbuckler unusability values and add the Backstab spell the Stalker uses into the CLAB. To restrict skill points you'd need to use the assassin usability values. So for the Sharpshooter you'd need to combine the two to get the new usability value.

I'll code the kit, if you want. :D Should only take 15 minutes or so.

I'm still not sure of the bonuses and the Called Shot, though...
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#26 jester

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 03:02 AM

Is the impression that this will be a kit also chooseable by the PC right or wrong?

#27 Andyr

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:23 AM

Right.

I'll attach it to this thread perhaps later tonight or early tomorrow. Might make it slightly different from the various ideas posted, though. :D
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#28 SixOfSpades

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 01:40 PM

Userfriendly said...

...now how about someone making the kit, and best of all, adding cre files (as per the swishy imoen mini mod) so when you pick her up at spell hold, she is a sharpshooter/mage???

HELL NO. If that means she follows the specifics of the kit as outlined, that means she gets only 15 Thieving points per level--meaning she'd be even weaker than Nalia in the Thief department. And what would she get in exchange? A whopping +4 bonus to THAC0 and Damage (after she puts +++ into Short Bow, a process which would take at least 12 Mage levels), and a single Called Shot per day. No, the Sharpshooter kit is definitely not for those who wish to Dual early.

and please include daggers in the mastery selection...throwing daggers??? in my game im always has firetooth dagger...

I object to throwing daggers for a different reason than the one CamDawg mentioned: The existing Throwing Daggers in the game are completely munchkin, doing double damage and allowing an extra ApR on top of that. Until they're smacked back down to normalcy, I wouldn't touch them with a stick.


CamDawg said...

...thanks to her lovely thief THAC0 that you mentioned, she [Imoen] still can't backstab.

Dundee created the acronym PRATI, which stands for "Projectimage-Robeofvecna-Amuletofpower-Timestop-Improvedalacrity."
My own acronym is GITBAK, for "Girdleofxgiantstrength-Improvedhaste-Timestop-Belm-Anothertimestop-Kundane." A guaranteed kill on any creature that is vulnerable to both TimeStop and +2 weapons, even those that constantly re-cast PfMW. Imoen and Nalia have an utter blast with this combination, although Imoen makes the most use of adding Potions of Invisibility for a free Backstab every round.

this disadvantage has no effect in an SoA game.

Obviously. But still, due to the facts that they gain Thieving skills so slowly and that the majority of their level-based THAC0 & Damage bonuses will come in ToB, I think most players will be tempted to take a pureclass Thief all the way through the game for a change. Besides, the HLA Traps can be cheesy as hell, and I'd be glad to see them go, especially for this kit.

But speaking of HLAs, it seems wrong to have a demi-Archer whose HLAs consist of nothing more than things like Avoid Death and Greater Evasion. How about....
Additional Advantages: Gains ToB HLAs of Critical Strike (once only), Whirlwind Attack, and Deathblow
Additional Disadvantages: Does not get Use Any Item, Scribe Scrolls, or Assassination
As Andyr suggested, it would be easier to use the Stalker's Backstab spell, so the Sharpshooter's Backstab would be capped at x3, not x2.

One thing that worries me--I just learned that non-Warriors are prevented (hardcoded) from gaining the extra ApR due to weapon proficiency, which frankly bites. I've never seen a "Increase ApR with Missile Weapons" spell effect, so I doubt I could make the Sharpshooter what I'd intended it to be in this regard.

#29 Andyr

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:14 PM

SHARPSHOOTER: This sort of thief tends to be a stealthy character, preferring to engage their target from afar with bolt or arrow rather than face them in dangerous melee combat. Unlike the ranger, they use their skills to aid their dubious activities involving the property and lives of others rather than the protection of the great outdoors.

Although well - versed in the use of many missile weapons, the sharpshooter is not as resilient as a true warrior and the propensity for missile attacks over melee means that they lack the opportunism of other thieves when it comes to backstabbing. They tend not to see this as a disadvantage, instead striking from the shadows with a well - aimed projectile, or setting a deadly trap for those who would follow, when necessary.

Advantages:

- Can attain Mastery in any missile weapon a Thief can use.
- Can make a Called Shot once per day per 5 levels. When he activates this ability, any shot made within the next 10 seconds is augmented in the following manner (according to the level of the sharpshooter):
4th level:  -1 to THACO of target
8th level:  -1 to save vs magic of target
12th level:  -1 to strength of target
16th level:  +2 bonus to damage

Disadvantages:

- Cannot be of Lawful Good alignment.
- Backstab multiplier capped at x2.


So, don't say I never do anything. :D

Compatible with AoE, etc. Read the ReadMe for full details. Uses the standard thief HLA table, so should work with Rogue Rebalancing or Refinements and stuff.

EDIT: THERE WILL BE NO BUGS!!!111111111

Edited by Andyr, 22 April 2004 - 11:34 PM.

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#30 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:18 PM

Sweet!

Version 1: 23/04/04
- Initial release. NO BUGS PLZ KTHXBYE!!!!111


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