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IR v4 - list of changes over v3


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#1 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:08 AM

It took so long to us to make an official release of V3 that now we're actually going to release a version which contains a lot more content than I originally thought (not surprising for those who know me). I hope this will partially make up for all the time we took to work on it and the problems we may have caused because of it.

Thanks to players feedback there will be a bunch of individual items changes (e.g. Armor of the Viper is widely considered too weak), or small refinements (e.g. for concept/flavor reasons Spider's Bane will get additional dmg vs. spiders, Bloodbrand will get a bonus against trolls, etc.), as well as few balance tweaks (e.g. MoD's disrupting effect was still too powerful, especially against liches because of their poor saves vs. death). Don't expect to see too many changes, at least not as many as IR V3, but quite a few.

That being said, the most noticeable additions will be a bunch of new options/components that may have a HUGE impact in terms of gameplay.
 

Global Changes


Revised Armors
This component will see two new entries, weapon speed factor penalties in heavy armors, and physical dmg resistance. The former is the natural expansion of another IR's tweak which makes weapon speed factors not change with enchantment lvl, and should be able to finally make speed factor a truly valuable stat. The physical resistance tweak is something I had in mind since ages, but only with V3 I managed to prepare the system for it (removing physical resistance from all non armor/shield items to avoid the 100%+ issue). IR will use relatively low % values compared to other mods which do a similar thing, and this feature work alongside the hidden AC bonuses instead of replacing them (the latters are used to make different weapon types more/less effective against armors).

As discussed here we opted for:
* Leather Armor & Studded Leather: 5% physical resistance
* Hide Armor & Chain Mail: 10% physical resistance
* Splint Mail & Plate Mail: 15% physical resistance
* Full Plate: 20% physical resistance

Revised Backstabbing
This component within V3 was used only by roleplayers who like to have sensible backstabbing multipliers based on weapon type, but now we're trying to add something new (thanks to ToBEx) which probably needs some playtesting but has a good potential imo. Long story short, I'm suggesting to allow ranged weapons to perform "sneak attacks". To balance it ranged weapons suffers a penalty to the backstab multiplier to compensate for the range advantage. As for all other weapons within IR, different types will have different penalties (e.g. light xbows are the best choice, short bows are less effective but good, and slings are not suited - heavy xbows and composite long bows need severe penalties for balance reasons). What do you think? Crazy?

Ranged weapons have the following backstab multipliers:
* darts no penalty (1d3 base dmg with no STR bonus, they really don't need a penalty imo)
* throwing daggers -1 penalty (going in melee with a dagger should be rewarded)
* light xbows and short bows -2 penalty (IR's xbow dmg output should still make it the best choice for this purpose)
* slings, long bows, heavy xbows -3 penalty (aka even a high lvl F/T can only backstab with a 2x multiplier)
* throwing axes/hammers/spears -4 penalty (aka not suitable) or -3 if we think x2 should be reachable by any weapon

On a side note, thanks to ToBEx we are now able to make non-thief weapons usable for backstabbing without having to flag them as usable by single class thief.

Revised Critical Hits
This component will remove "immunity to critical hits" feature from all head slot items, making criticals something players should fear again (right now the whole party is immune to it because even Ioun Stones protect from them), and allowing me to use "immunity to critical hits" as a valuable special feature of selected items (e.g. a fortified armor).

In exchange for losing the protection from criticals, helmets will get 1 point of AC bonus. Circlets, ioun stones, and similar items won't get this AC bonus.

Weapons changes
It all started from the idea of making short bows allow more "mobility" than long bows (Dragon Dogma style if anyone has played that game), while pointing out that xbows have uber fast "point and click first shot" but do have a unpractical reload mechanic.

Ranged Weapons:
- short bow speed factor remains 6 (which actually means 4 taking bows +1/2 apr into account)
- long bow speed factor changed from 7 to 9
- composite long bow speed factor changed from 7 to 10
- light xbow speed factor changed from 5 to 1
- heavy xbow speed factor changed from 10 to 1
- after firing a bolt, light xbow now requires 1 second to reload, during which the character cannot perform any other action
- after firing a bolt, heavy xbow now requires 2 seconds to reload, during which the character cannot perform any other action
- sling speed factor changed from 6 to 10
What do you think?

On a side note, we are still discussing about slings allowing STR bonus to dmg (BGEE have opted for it).

Thrown Weapons:

- thrown axes/daggers/hammers/spears range lowered from 20 to 15

- increased projectile speed from 20 to 40 (arrows/bolts have 60)

 

 

Item changes

 
General changes
 
BG1 & BGEE items
See here.

Bane weapons
The Bane enhancement will now grant "only" +6 dmg for 1-handed weapons, while 2-handed weapons keep the current +8 dmg bonus.

Disruptive Weapons
Even after the heavy nerf I applied them (from vanilla's -4 save penalty to no penalty) Mace of Disruption and Azuredge are still considered very overpowered, especially against the most powerful undead creatures (e.g. liches have terrible saves against death, and a Disruptive weapon still had a 50% chance on each hit to destroy them). A partial solution was just around the corner: making the effect allow a save vs. spell instead of vs. death (it even makes more sense considering undead saving against death sounds wrong). For most undead creatures such change won't be a huge difference, on average its +10% chance to fail the save, but for spellcasting undead creatures (aka powerful vampires and liches) that means going from 50% chance to die on each hit to "only" 5-20%.

 

Leather Armors

Spoiler

 

Hide Armors

Spoiler

 

Robes

Spoiler

 

BattleAxes

Spoiler

 
Katanas & wakizashis
Spoiler

 
Wands & Rods
Spoiler


Edited by Demivrgvs, 11 September 2015 - 04:58 AM.


#2 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:46 AM

Revised Critical Strike: this component will remove "immunity to critical hits" feature from all head slot items


I hope you mean all head slot items available to the player and not every single helmet-type item in the game.

There are many instances where a helmet-type item is deliberately used to make a creature immune to critical hits, both in the ummodded game and in certain mods. For example, vanilla Bodhi has HELMNOAN.ITM in her helmet slot which makes her immune to criticals, while aTweaks' elementals use RR#ETRAI.ITM in for similar reasons.

#3 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:55 AM

Revised Critical Strike: this component will remove "immunity to critical hits" feature from all head slot items

I hope you mean all head slot items available to the player and not every single helmet-type item in the game.

There are many instances where a helmet-type item is deliberately used to make a creature immune to critical hits, both in the ummodded game and in certain mods. For example, vanilla Bodhi has HELMNOAN.ITM in her helmet slot which makes her immune to criticals, while aTweaks' elementals use RR#ETRAI.ITM in for similar reasons.

I find your lack of faith disturbing. :D Jokes aside, yes, we are indeed aware of that. As a general rule we planned to not remove the "immunity" from all head slot items flagged as "not droppable" or "not removable". It should work, shouldn't it? :)

#4 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:00 AM

As a general rule we planned to not remove the "immunity" from all head slot items flagged as "not droppable" or "not removable". It should work, shouldn't it? :)


In theory, yes, but remember that it is possible to flag items as undroppable in the CRE file as well, so your approach is not 100% error proof.

If you are already doing mass patching, a better way would be to have a list of designated items which need to be changed instead of automatically modifying every single helmet-slot item in the game.

#5 Lawlight

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:28 AM

Revised Backstabbing my favorite

What do you think? Crazy?

Crazy? Yes, but in a good way. :) Believe it if you will, but I had thought about how cool such a feature would be some time ago. Sharp Shooting is an aspect which is actually heavy underrepresented for thiefs. This option may add more to the thief class (at least for me) than you will ever capable to do within KR (no offense meant). Furthermore, I want to suggest a ranged pendant of Short Sword of Backstabbing for those who would use this component.

To balance it both I and Ardanis agreed that ranged weapons should suffer a penalty to the backstab multiplier to compensate for the range advantage.

Sounds like a good way to balance it.

Revised Armors
I like both options alot! The weapon speed factor penalties in heavy armors will mean a considerable difference for rogues and light/medium-armored warriors, which is a good thing.

Revised Critical Strike
I never really understood why on earth especially the Helm alone should protect from chritical strikes anyway.

Other
May I ask if you plan to include Rod Revision too? I'm really looking forward to it. :)

Edited by Lawlight, 04 May 2012 - 06:30 AM.

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#6 Demivrgvs

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:29 AM

Revised Backstabbing

Crazy? Yes, but in a good way. :) Believe it if you will, but I had thought about how cool such a feature would be some time ago. Sharp Shooting is an aspect which is actually heavy underrepresented for thiefs. This option may add more to the thief class (at least for me) than you will ever capable to do within KR (no offense meant).

Ahaha. We'll see. ;) Btw, this is almost the same thing I felt when we made "Kensai's can use bracers" part of IR. Both tweaks may as well belong to KR instead of IR, but it's not a big deal, especially as I see all Revisions mods as the same huge mod splitted into multiple components. :D

Furthermore, I want to suggest a ranged pendant of Short Sword of Backstabbing for those who would use this component.

Eh eh, already thoght about it, and it wasn't a hard choice considering how that weapon works within IR...Necaradan's Light Xbow.

Other

May I ask if you plan to include Rod Revision too? I'm really looking forward to it. :)

Indeed. I already worked on that. :) I still have a couple of doubts, hopefully I'll sort them out. In short:
* Rod of Terror: not sure which weapon it should be, I think mace though. I've removed the absurd drawback and made it a fearsome mace.
* Rod of Smiting: not sure which weapon it should be, I think club though. Pratically the anti-golem MoD.
* Rod of Resurrection: raise 1 creature, no more ranged instantaneous 100% healing. In the end I've left it usable by anyone, as even within PnP rods are supposed to be easy to use items (wielder just need to push a button).
* Rod of Absorption: I've made it usable by anyone, not just spellcasters. It insta-absorbs/deflect 1 spell (up to 9th lvl).
* Rod of Reversal: I made the former cast Dispel Magic as per NWN - vanilla's description was saying it's supposed to be the most prized item for Wizards Slayers, and RRoR isn't useful to non-mages - but Ardanis was not convinced). I don't understand why this rod was warrior-only in vanilla, imo it makes no sense neither conceptually nor PnP wise, thus I've made it usable by anyone.
* Rod of Lordly Might: this is the only rod I still haven't finished. I'm trying to find a way to keep each weapon type at least somewhat appealing by the time you find the rod.

On a side note, I've stolen quite a few bams to replace those ugly ToB Rods and Wands.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 04 May 2012 - 07:29 AM.


#7 Lawlight

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:58 AM

Rods
Rods are a tough theme. Within D&D Rods are scepterlike devices that anyone can use ("push the button") and that have unique magical powers, but unlike Wands do not have charges. Your planned changes seem to support most of that. They are often Clubs, Maces or Staffs (in BG sometimes even Wands <- don't like that), I can't imagine a sceptrelike Quarterstaff though. Most likely the developers made them Quarterstaffs by default to make them useable by anyone. It appears to me that you follow that road too (I mean the "useable by anyone" part), but on the other hand you plan to make some of them maces/clubs. Don't get me wrong I think clubs/maces fit better, but by doing that you exclude mages form using them. Maybe it's time to make Clubs useable by mages too or for rods to actually be a weapon category of it's own.

Edited by Lawlight, 04 May 2012 - 09:59 AM.

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#8 lynx

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:40 PM

congratulations! The critical change sounds troublesome, especially for bg1, but I guess it needs more ingame testing to see how much it really affects the balance.

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#9 Ardanis

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:10 PM


Revised Critical Strike: this component will remove "immunity to critical hits" feature from all head slot items


I hope you mean all head slot items available to the player and not every single helmet-type item in the game.

There are many instances where a helmet-type item is deliberately used to make a creature immune to critical hits, both in the ummodded game and in certain mods. For example, vanilla Bodhi has HELMNOAN.ITM in her helmet slot which makes her immune to criticals, while aTweaks' elementals use RR#ETRAI.ITM in for similar reasons.

I indeed have initially thought to leave unmovable items untouched, but I am no longer sure. I beileve bosses were given illegal crit immunity only to even the odds, because party is immune already. By illegal I mean things exactly like Bodhi, because nothing indicates she is actually wearing anything in her head slot and vampires are not generally immune.

As far as balance is concerned, removing the immunity is a double-edged thing. We may now have better results from using Critical Strike HLA, but at the same time so will do enemies.

What's more, since you and Wisp has shamelessly stolen our Creature Revisions idea without asking any permission prior to (not that I complain - less work for us :D ), perhaps you can implement PnP crit immunities for all other creatures? I'm sure I saw spectral undead to die from critical hits in vanilla game.

Shield Bash Attack
This is something I have done couple of months ago - shields receive the ability to perform bash attacks once per round, dealing small amounts of damage and stunning/pushing back the opponent for a short time, while losing the AC bonus for one round. Interaction of shields' enchantment with PFMW spells is handled, and there's even a possibility to allow AI to bash as well (if DavidW will be willing to).

At first it was small and medium shields only, but now I think smalls only will do, because otherwise they have no redeeming qualities as a class at all.

Demi, however, didn't seem convinced about this tweak.

Edited by Ardanis, 04 May 2012 - 02:13 PM.

Retired from modding.


#10 Lawlight

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:40 PM

Shield Bash Attack
Ahaha. Dude, that's so cool. :D The only thing which seems a bit odd to me is that you want to limit it to small shields. While this would definitely help to make small shields more appealing, I think realistically you should be able to use all shields as a weapon (except Large/Tower Shields). Btw have you ever thought about granting Large Shield users the ability to cover behind the shield (a.k.a. Total Cover), disabling your own attacks but getting Immunity to ranged attacks in exchange?

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#11 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 07:01 PM

I indeed have initially thought to leave unmovable items untouched, but I am no longer sure. I beileve bosses were given illegal crit immunity only to even the odds, because party is immune already. By illegal I mean things exactly like Bodhi, because nothing indicates she is actually wearing anything in her head slot and vampires are not generally immune.


I'm my view, removing critical immunity from items that are not available to the player is far beyond the scope of an Item Revisions mod. Again, I'd urge you to reconsider.

What's more, since you and Wisp has shamelessly stolen our Creature Revisions idea without asking any permission prior to (not that I complain - less work for us :D ), perhaps you can implement PnP crit immunities for all other creatures? I'm sure I saw spectral undead to die from critical hits in vanilla game.


While, I'm sure you're joking, I wasn't even aware that there is a Creature Revisions mod nor that we needed anyone's permission to reference PnP source material.

#12 Lawlight

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:22 PM

I'm my view, removing critical immunity from items that are not available to the player is far beyond the scope of an Item Revisions mod. Again, I'd urge you to reconsider.

Personally, I see no problem here as long as it's planned as an optional component. :)

Edited by Lawlight, 04 May 2012 - 08:22 PM.

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#13 aVENGER_(RR)

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:30 PM

I'm my view, removing critical immunity from items that are not available to the player is far beyond the scope of an Item Revisions mod. Again, I'd urge you to reconsider.

Personally, I see no problem here as long as it's planned as an optional component. :)


The problem is that making such a change in the manner which Ardanis proposed can break other people's work.

To clarify, I have no problem with Item Revisions removing critical hit immunity from Ioun Stones, helmets, hoods and similar headgear which is available to the party. My issue is with removing critical hit immunity from undroppable items which were deliberately placed on creatures to grant them this trait.

Edited by aVENGER_(RR), 04 May 2012 - 08:52 PM.


#14 JosephJohnson

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:46 PM

I really like the critical hit immunity removed idea. It would make the game tougher but not in a huge way, and as you said, it allows for you to create special items which will prevent them.

The ranged backstabbing sounds cool but I don't think it would be fun to walk into Mae'Var's guild and have your party obliterated by 15 thieves backstabbing you from afar. The only way I could see this working is if most ranged weapons had a -3 penalty to backstab with only a few with -2 such as Necaradan's crossbow. It does sound cool though.

#15 Demivrgvs

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:11 AM

Revised Critical Strike

What's more, since you and Wisp has shamelessly stolen our Creature Revisions idea without asking any permission prior to (not that I complain - less work for us :D ), perhaps you can implement PnP crit immunities for all other creatures? I'm sure I saw spectral undead to die from critical hits in vanilla game.

While, I'm sure you're joking, I wasn't even aware that there is a Creature Revisions mod nor that we needed anyone's permission to reference PnP source material.

Arda was obviously just joking. ;)

To clarify, I have no problem with Item Revisions removing critical hit immunity from Ioun Stones, helmets, hoods and similar headgear which is available to the party. My issue is with removing critical hit immunity from undroppable items which were deliberately placed on creatures to grant them this trait.

This got me by surprise too, it must have been a last minute change of mind of Arda. I'd say he has a point, but I tend to agree with you. Certain creatures are not supposed to be immune to criticals, and yet they are, but it's probably something that should be handled by something like aVENGER/Wisp PnP Creatures, or an eventual Creature Revisions.

I really like the critical hit immunity removed idea. It would make the game tougher but not in a huge way, and as you said, it allows for you to create special items which will prevent them.

Well, sounds like pretty much everyone likes this. Great. :)

Revised Backstab

The ranged backstabbing sounds cool but I don't think it would be fun to walk into Mae'Var's guild and have your party obliterated by 15 thieves backstabbing you from afar. The only way I could see this working is if most ranged weapons had a -3 penalty to backstab with only a few with -2 such as Necaradan's crossbow. It does sound cool though.

Well, considering this was the last crazy idea I had not long ago we didn't set the values into stone. For now my list looks like this:
* darts no penalty (1d3 base dmg with no STR bonus, they really don't need a penalty imo)
* throwing daggers -1 penalty (going in melee with a dagger should be rewarded)
* light xbows and short bows -2 penalty (IR's xbow dmg output should still make it the best choice for this purpose, doesn't it?)
* slings, long bows, heavy xbows -3 penalty (aka even a high lvl F/T can only backstab with a 2x multiplier)
* throwing axes/hammers/spears -4 penalty (aka not suitable) or -3 if we think x2 should be reachable by any weapon

Necaradan should get no more than -1 penalty imo. It doesn't get STR bonus and even a plain dagger +2 can easily match its dmg output with a modest STR bonus (e.g. STR 16):
* 5th lvl thief --> 2d10+4* vs. 3d4+6 + (STR bonus x3) --> 15 dmg vs. 16.5 dmg.
* 13th lvl thief --> 4d10+8* vs. 5d4+10 + (STR bonus x5) --> 30 dmg vs. 27.5 dmg.

*We would have to add here an eventual ammo enchantment, but otoh we would have to compare it to unique daggers which usually pack very good on hit effects within IR. If Necaradan, or another similar item, is supposed to be especially tailored for sharp shooting than it deserves to at least comes close to other non-dedicated weapons imo. A dedicated melee weapon such as the Short Sword of Backstabbing will still outshine it by a mile instead (e.g. a 13th lvl thief would deal 6d6 + 18 + 6 = 45 dmg).

What do you think?

Shield Bash
Yeah, I'm still not convinced about its implementation. Afaik we don't have an animation for it, and so it would look strange, like using an innate instead of performing a bash attack. You're generally good at persuading me, and in this case I'd really like to be convinced, but I'm not.

Rods

Rods are a tough theme. Within D&D Rods are scepterlike devices that anyone can use ("push the button") and that have unique magical powers, but unlike Wands do not have charges. Your planned changes seem to support most of that. They are often Clubs, Maces or Staffs (in BG sometimes even Wands <- don't like that), I can't imagine a sceptrelike Quarterstaff though. Most likely the developers made them Quarterstaffs by default to make them useable by anyone. It appears to me that you follow that road too (I mean the "useable by anyone" part), but on the other hand you plan to make some of them maces/clubs. Don't get me wrong I think clubs/maces fit better, but by doing that you exclude mages form using them. Maybe it's time to make Clubs useable by mages too or for rods to actually be a weapon category of it's own.

Having weapon-like rods not usable by mages isn't a game-breaking issue imo (btw, Rod of Smiting was cleric-only in vanilla, and Rod of Lordly Might creates weapons a mage can't use anyway - so it's just the rod of terror), but you have a point. I actually assumed mages could use clubs by default (via tweak pack) because it doesn't make sense they can't. As I said, rods are a pain to handle, still, making them clubs is a good compromise imo.

Edited by Demivrgvs, 05 May 2012 - 01:52 AM.




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