cursed items

[subtledoctor]

Just looking through this forum and I didn't see a thread on this. I know from various comments around here that Demi has paid attention to cursed items, trying to make them less of an easily-avoidable joke. But I'm not sure to what extent.

 

To recap what I think we all understand and accept: cursed items are a joke in this game, little traps set for players who don't Identify before equipping, *and* who use Item Randomizer. For most players, these items are wastes of dev effort that are easily avoided.

 

One thing discussed has been to make them more balanced - give them good effects and bad effects and let players choose whether it's worth it to use the item. Like the Claw of Kazgoroth. I applaud this approach and maybe it should be extended to even more items (Belm: +1 apr, but sets TWF Style to zero pips while equipped ).

 

But my question is, what about the "cursed item" mechanic itself? Will it remain? It's pretty stupid; the only people who equip the Berserking Sword are those who do so on purpose, and if someone equipped it on purpose, it's a bit silly to say "OMG now you can't unequip it unless you cast Remove Curse! The horror!!1!"

 

(I ask for self reasons: I'm planning a mod that's going to hijack the "remove curse" opcode, and I'm wondering whether it will interfere with IR items.)

[Jarno Mikkola]

(Belm: +1 apr, but sets TWF Style to zero pips while equipped ).

Have you tried that ? Cause it doesn't work. You can't unset the profs.

[subtledoctor]

Hmmm... you can definitely set profs to specific values via 'While Equipped' timing mode on items. That's how my revised shapeshifter werewolf paws work. They use a weapon prof that Druids can't get points in, like bastard swords... so when you wear the paw, you automatically have 2 pips in the paw, and when the paw disappears, you automatically go back to whatever the earlier value was.

 

Opcode 233 can only SET the value, there is no increment option. I haven't tested yet, but I don't see why you couldn't set the value to lower than the player's current value. Unless it just doesn't take zero as a value, in which case it could be 1.

 

In any event that was mostly a joke... silly munchkin millennial players would never use a mod that nerfs their DW Belm cheese...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Opcode 233 can only SET the value

233:

 

NB: The Proficiency Modifier effect cannot increment proficiency points, it can only SET them.

NB. The Proficiency Modifier cannot decrement the proficiency points.

[Mike1072]

I believe that bug/feature was fixed by EE.

 

I recall Demi actually took advantage of it in some spells to provide the wielder of some magically-created weapons proficiency/specialization/whatever. The EE change had the side effect of making those spells actually reduce your proficiency with the weapon if it was one you were more proficient in previously. I don't know what ended up coming of that (whether there's a workaround available or whether Demi changed the spells or what).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, I am more inclined to believe thst ToBEx might come with such feature, but that's again, only with ToBEx/EE. Which is the exact reason I asked about try experience.

[subtledoctor]

"Set lower" is different from "decrement." So the IESDP is unclear, and really quite unhelpful here.

 

In any event I haven't played a game without either TobEx or EE for 10 years. [bGT+TobEx] or [Tutu+TobEx] or [EE] are the only platforms worth targeting with mods IMHO.

[cipher]

I think the sticky mechanic of cursed items does have a reason for being there. Removing the downside of such an item shouldn't be a click away. Having to spend scrolls or daily spells to get rid of it I think makes the player commit to an alternative strategy that incorporates the downside of the curse and seek way to remove it only when that strategy is not viable anymore.

 

BTW I think aTweaks (or SCS?) must be using a similar trick for some demon spell. There were plenty of times that I found Korgan fighting bare-knuckled when I was using the Vampire's Revenge in lieu of +3 weapon, probably after being the target of that mystery spell. I forgot to investigate more to identify the culprit.

 

Also something that I'd be meaning to ask for a long time, since Mike mentioned it. Is there an obvious reason why magically created weapons don't use their own proficiency class? It seems there are several unused that can be temporarily used for that purpose. 108 and 134 (PROFICIENCYBLACKJACK and EXTRAPROFICIENCY20 as NI is naming them) are two that I don't think is used anywhere else. There's a load more that I don't know how they are used but their names are awfully specific not to give me pause.

If anyone can shed a bit of light in that I'd appreciate it, that's a long standing question of mine.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Also something that I'd be meaning to ask for a long time, since Mike mentioned it. Is there an obvious reason why magically created weapons don't use their own proficiency class? It seems there are several unused that can be temporarily used for that purpose. 108 and 134 (PROFICIENCYBLACKJACK and EXTRAPROFICIENCY20 as NI is naming them) are two that I don't think is used anywhere else. There's a load more that I don't know how they are used but their names are awfully specific not to give me pause.

If anyone can shed a bit of light in that I'd appreciate it, that's a long standing question of mine.

One consept should be it, Detectable Spells.

[subtledoctor]

Is there an obvious reason why magically created weapons don't use their own proficiency class? It seems there are several unused that can be temporarily used for that purpose.

I think they are all used by detectable spells (which is unfortunate - we only need *one* for spell items!). One easy solution is to use an existing proficiency that is unavailable to the caster. So, for any divine spells / druid spells / druidshapeshift claws, I just use 2-handed swords or something like that. No druid or cleric can use greatswords, so it's effectively an "extra unused" proficiency.

 

That doesn't work for wizard spell though, since fighter/mages can use anything. You could play with the system a bit:

- prevent F/Ms from using 2-handed swords, because how do you use somatic components while holding a claymore?

- fold bastard swords into the long sword proficiency, because there is no in-game difference between them

- fold long bows and short bows into a single proficiency, since why are they separate again??

 

I actually use both of the latter 2 options... but those are wide-ranging effects - freeing up a proficiency for spell items is really just a side benefit.

 

I think the sticky mechanic of cursed items does have a reason for being there. Removing the downside of such an item shouldn't be a click away. Having to spend scrolls or daily spells to get rid of it I think makes the player commit to an alternative strategy that incorporates the downside of the curse and seek way to remove it only when that strategy is not viable anymore.

But wouldn't it be better to balance the items in a more interesting way? Look at the Berserking Sword +3 as an example. Even without the "can't remove it" mechanic it's balanced perfectly: to get the benefit of it you have to equip it and fight with it. But doing so is quite risky. (Unless it's a solo run, in which case it's just cheesy. )

 

Simply possessing it while not in combat is not risky, so the inability to unequip it is meaningless. Other items could be modded to have similar risk/reward characteristics that don't depend on the curse mechanic. That's what Salk's mod does, and I thought I recalled Demi talking about it as well. But I don't fully remember, so I thought I would ask.

 

BTW I think aTweaks (or SCS?) must be using a similar trick for some demon spell. There were plenty of times that I found Korgan fighting bare-knuckled when I was using the Vampire's Revenge in lieu of +3 weapon, probably after being the target of that mystery spell.

 

This is precisely what I want to avoid. It strikes me as a pretty rare occurrence, but I want to do my best to prevent it. An obvious way to do so is to modify the items... but I thought I would check and see how IR modifies them first, since I, like any sane person, only play with IR installed.

[Demivrgvs]

Ehm...I'm a bit late sorry. Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

Cursed Items

@subtle I do tried to make every cursed item sort of appealing, but I would gladly discuss each of them a bit if you want. Should I put down a list?

 

When it comes to remove the "cursed flag", I agree it's not alway needed and it actually create a few issues, but in some cases it's still necessary imo (e.g. if you can remove the Berserking Sword at will you don't have to worry about losing control - just switch weapon and regain control within seconds). Considering SR turns Remove Curse into an almost mandatory spell we don't even have to worry about making that spell useless.

 

Opcode 233

@Mike this opcode couldn't decrement prof points within vanilla ToBEx but for some reason EE changed it and it can longer fit my intedend use for both SR (e.g. giving a mage long sword prof when casting Phantom Blade) and KR (Fighter's ability to use any weapon type).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Cursed Items

@subtle I do tried to make every cursed item sort of appealing, but I would gladly discuss each of them a bit if you want. Should I put down a list?

 

When it comes to remove the "cursed flag", I agree it's not alway needed and it actually create a few issues, but in some cases it's still necessary imo (e.g. if you can remove the Berserking Sword at will you don't have to worry about losing control - just switch weapon and regain control within seconds). Considering SR turns Remove Curse into an almost mandatory spell we don't even have to worry about making that spell useless.

Wha ?!? Sorry, but I am just stunned that you forget that when you loose control, you don't remember that you just lost control, aka you can't change the weapon, to get the control back, in bad berserk. Yes, the effect should last for about 5 rounds or a 1 turn(10 rounds), but that's still long enough to have the fight over and get your other fighter dead even in heavy armor as he protects the rest of the group from the fighter with the sword, especially if you are in a bad spot.

[Demivrgvs]

... if you can remove the Berserking Sword at will you don't have to worry about losing control - just switch weapon and regain control within seconds...

Wha ?!? Sorry, but I am just stunned that you forget that when you loose control, you don't remember that you just lost control, aka you can't change the weapon, to get the control back, in bad berserk. Yes, the effect should last for about 5 rounds or a 1 turn(10 rounds), but that's still long enough to have the fight over and get your other fighter dead even in heavy armor as he protects the rest of the group from the fighter with the sword, especially if you are in a bad spot.

I'm a bit rusty indeed but "berserk opcode" uses 'while equipped' (it check for enemies in sight every 6 sec imo) and we cannot change its duration. I thought you could have a chance to switch weapon between each check if we remove the 'cursed flag', but it's worth checking it out I guess.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

An equipped cursed item can't be unequipped via inventory screen, nor swap to another weapon on the main screen, whether in combat/berserking or not.

[subtledoctor]

I think Demi was saying, if the weapon is *not* cursed, and you are in a berserk state, you can switch to another weapon to end the berserk state. Which is kind of unfortunate, if true.

 

I suppose it could modded to be longer - maybe add ten extra effects, with increasing delays of six seconds, that make you save or go berserk... so the lingering effects of the weapon can still take hold of you for ten rounds after you stop using it. Something like that.

 

But, I'm not advocating anything here, just curious about what IR already does. Thanks for the info Demi!