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Two things that bother me about (probably) SCS


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#1 Ulb

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 10:55 PM

So, seeing as you're currently working on a new version I thought I bring up two points that bother me about SCS behavior.

Now, this is just from the top of my head since I haven't actually played in a while and I never really investigated if all of those issues really are part of SCS. (They are though, at the very least, present while SCSs is installed.)

 

Still, better to mention it now while it might be of some use to you then later once SCS32 is finished, right?

 

1.

SCS mages (liches) will teleport to party members that are off screen and have never even engaged with the lich. To me this is SCS actually cheating.

There is no in-game explanation for the lich to know where my party members are, nor is there a good reason for them to even start looking for them in the first place.

I get that it's probably there to avoid cheese tactics but IMHO this behavior severely punishes party play-throughs (compared to solo players) since protecting a whole party (that is also at a lower level than a solo player would be) is significantly harder than just protecting one character. (And worse, it is also significantly more “effort” on the player.)

If SCS wants to continue having the AI teleport to party members off screen, enemy casters should at least have to spent time to cast some divination spell a'la far sight or wizard's eye and then have a percentage chance to successfully “discover” party members.

 

2.

Undead controlled by a cleric behave like they are charmed instead of dominated and will also randomly start to re-engage party members even though they are still controlled.

This appears to be unintended behavior and to be honest I'm not sure how much of it is SCS's doing/fault and how much is hardcoded.

In any case it is something that does happen with SCS installed so it might be worth to look into.

 

With good clerics outright destroying undead creatures I don't think evil turn undead should “only” charm undead instead of dominating them. (What I mean by this is that controlled undead will break free if they are harmed by the party.)

Doesn't make sense lore wise either, since you're not magically making them think you're their friend, you're out right controlling them.

 

With controlled undead also attacking party members it would seem like their scripts aren't properly detecting them being controlled or not account for it at all.

 

On a side note: Controlled liches behave really wonky. They will also still occasionally cast spells at the party and they constantly get their meteors refreshed which looks very immersion breaking.

Now, I get that this is less of a concern since you usually don't really get to the point where controlling liches is a viable option but since the EEs introduced the new Opcode to buff turn undead levels it might be worthwhile to also look into to avoid issues with mods that might use that effect.


Edited by Ulb, 16 October 2018 - 10:58 PM.


#2 Almateria

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 11:21 PM

 

SCS mages (liches) will teleport to party members that are off screen and have never even engaged with the lich. To me this is SCS actually cheating.

There is no in-game explanation for the lich to know where my party members are, nor is there a good reason for them to even start looking for them in the first place.

 

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#3 DavidW

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 05:09 AM

1 is a bug in SCS, not intended behavior. (Almateria is right that one could concoct an in game explanation, but I didn’t have it in mind. I think v32 will solve it.

2 I don’t know about. I have to say I’d never really considered how controlled lichens would play out. There’s probably something I can do about it.

#4 Ardanis

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 11:22 AM

Regarding teleport, I had similar dilemma with neothelid, which I solved by having it sense the entire area via ESP and ignore people protected by Sanctuary and Chaotic Commands.

 

While liches don't have innate ESP, they still could be presumed to possess divination powers, which are blocked by Non-Detection, SI:DIvination, Sanctuary and whatever else might there be.


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#5 Arthas

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 01:00 AM

Ulb thanks for pointing these issues. The liches teleporting, I've always seen it as cheesy stuff done to avoid cheese and as such I would have never reported it simply because I thought it was intended by DavidW

The second issue never came to my mind given that I always use good clerics

Thanks for your post.



#6 WanderingScholar

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Posted 21 October 2018 - 04:41 PM

It actually never bothered me that liches teleport (or even other high level mages for that matter). The infinity engine games have always struggled to combat "out of sight" tactics used by the player. In vanilla BG2 the most common way to approach liches was to send in wave after wave of summons while party members camped off screen. Although it's not as bad as going in and out of areas to avoid spells it still exploits engine limitations. I think it could be justified that high level mages use divination to locate you, but that's just my 2 cents. I'm surprised to learn that the teleporting is actually a bug in SCS. Maybe the mechanic can be improved somehow?

 

The control undead ability of evil clerics definitely could use some tweaking. Another frustration beside the one you mentioned is that often even while controlled the undead will still run away in fear as if they've been turned. This means you have to constantly corral them even though you technically have control.


Edited by WanderingScholar, 21 October 2018 - 04:45 PM.


#7 DavidW

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Posted 21 October 2018 - 04:46 PM

Perhaps "bug" isn't quite the right description. SCS mages will teleport to the party if they've previously seen a party member but now can't see any party members. Coding limitations meant that in v31 and earlier I don't keep track of *which* party member I've seen. In v32, I do - assuming it works correctly (always hit and miss with things this fiddly) then mages will divine, and teleport to, people they've already seen, but not players who are minding their own business in a corner somewhere.

#8 c4_angel

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 10:09 PM

Despite of "cheating" concern, I myself prefer the mechanic of teleportation in tactic mod: the lich cast a "special" Teleport Field spell which teleport all party members in thearea to around himself and cast DM instantly, if he has previously seen a party member but now can't see any party members.

1) There is an explanation, I think.

2) More challenge, it would be very dangerous if try to leave the sight of the lich, coz member like fighter can be very vulnerable against the lich and the summon demons.

3) There can be a trick in original SCS mechanic: leave the sight of the lich at almost the end of his PFMW, he will teleport to the party with no protection for a round so can be elimitated easily.


Edited by c4_angel, 25 October 2018 - 10:18 PM.


#9 DavidW

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 10:41 AM

(3) is fairly clearly a deliberate exploit, and I have a don’t-block-deliberate-exploits policy.

#10 c4_angel

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:14 PM

Understood.





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