Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Demivrgvs]

Tracking + Hunter's Quarry

I'll think about it a bit more. Does anyone else want to share his opinion on this matter?

 

Stalker's weapon proficiencies

I think the current restrictions are too severe. While I am definitely on board with not allowing two-handed swords, axes, flails etc. I still think that the Stalker kit is a Warrior class at its base. Leaving it with thief weapons only is a very harsh restriction. Long bows seem to me to be quintessential Ranger Weapons, and should therefore be allowed. Spears, I grant you, makes less sense theme wise. However they do sort of fall within the "light" weapon category and are currently underused.

I'm sympathetic with long bows but I still believe they really doesn't fit the kit specialization.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "spears are underused". You mean as a class "focus"? They are a great pick for druids, and with IR it's a magnificient weapon type for many classes imo as it offers a lot of variety (including some ranged, returning variants with either elemental dmg or heavy dmg + high enchantment, etc.).

 

Ranger kits armor restrictions

Yes, I do noticed Archer and Stalker share the same restriction, but it's a given imo, no?

Edit: Unless "not wear metal armors" for Beastmaster allows armors like Ashen Scales? In that case, feel free to disregard these musings

Yes, the Beastmaster can use Ankheg Plate for BG1 (probably the best armor in that part of the game), Ashen Scales for SoA and most importantly all dragon armors (e.g. Red Dragonplate Armor is surely among the best armors in the game with or without IR).

[Shaitan]

Aren't they allowed to use fragon scale suits and ankegh armours?

 

Rangers IMO shouldn't wear metal armours.

 

Regarding Stalkers I find those resrictions AOK, but I follow the point about bows however.

[janoha]

Stalker's Weapon Proficiencies

With regards to spears being "underused" I mean as a class focus, yes. They have worse damage type than both Two-Handed Swords and Quarterstaffs and still relatively low damage. At the moment, the only class I see where spears make sense are druids. And even then using a Scimitar and a buckler will likely be a lot better. It is not a strong point for me, however, as I recognize that they thematically aren't the best fit for the Stalker. I just dislike seeing a cool weapon type being relatively useless, even though IR does help a lot.

Ranger kits armor restrictions

Beastmasters can also use heavy armors like Ankheg Plate? That seems strange given that the base class is limited to Splint Mail? I love the Splint Mail limit for the Ranger though

[Shaitan]

Ankhegs are animals therefor imitating leather.

[janoha]

Ankhegs are animals therefor imitating leather.

 

It is functionally a Plate Mail. Same damage reduction and penalties. And it is not usable by the standard Ranger. It seems strange to me, that the Beastmaster gets access to better armors as a *penalty*

[Jarno Mikkola]

Stalker's Weapon Proficiencies

With regards to spears being "underused" I mean as a class focus, yes. They have worse damage type than both Two-Handed Swords and Quarterstaffs and still relatively low damage.

Still if you allow stalker to use a spear, you'll also allow them to backstab with it, and the thief can't, as it's not allowed to use it.. let's take the IR's impaler+3 for example, it's backstab damage on a high level ranger is: (1d8 +3 +1d10)*4 +strength bonus. Which is 20-84+ strength bonus. Which is close to average of 45 points, for a one hit. That's quite much compared to the sword of backstab.

 

It is functionally a Plate Mail. Same damage reduction and penalties.

It's a beast armor... so what if it functions like a plate mail ? Do we need to make it have a more unique template ? How about a +4 AC penalty from carrion crawlers ? Edited May 2, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[Demivrgvs]

Stalker's Weapon Proficiencies

With regards to spears being "underused" I mean as a class focus, yes. They have worse damage type than both Two-Handed Swords and Quarterstaffs and still relatively low damage. At the moment, the only class I see where spears make sense are druids. And even then using a Scimitar and a buckler will likely be a lot better. It is not a strong point for me, however, as I recognize that they thematically aren't the best fit for the Stalker. I just dislike seeing a cool weapon type being relatively useless, even though IR does help a lot.

Within IR spears deal 1d8 dmg, strike much faster than greatswords (twice as fast) and have slightly longer range (3 instead of 2 - enough to hit creatures under Fire Shield without harming oneself). Piercing type is also quite good against armors, much better better than slashing. If you are a fighter with GM than yes, you cannot care less about that small accuracy bonus vs armors and greatswords offer a lot more dmg potential, but other classes may prefer a more reliable hit rate (druids in particular, but to a lesser extent barbarians and rangers too due to lower weapon mastery) or to get both a melee and a STR based ranged option with a single weapon specialization.

Ranger kits armor restrictions

Beastmasters can also use heavy armors like Ankheg Plate? That seems strange given that the base class is limited to Splint Mail? I love the Splint Mail limit for the Ranger though

Ankheg Armor is classified as medium armor within IR in terms of weight and encumberance (the two stats that determine DEX and weapon speed penalties). Same for heavy armors made of dragon scales. Thus, in a certain sense, the Beastmaster is still limited to "medium armors". Btw, in a similar way even vanilla's thieves were limited to light armors but could wear elven chain mails, which have medium armor stats but light armor weight and encumberance.

 

Beastmaster gets access to better armors as a *penalty*

Ideally I wanted to get rid of the "advantages/disadvantages" template and go for a "class features" one (KR's paladins are are the only classes using the latter template for now). Btw, the Beastmaster might not even remain the only "case". For example I actually planned to let the Skald use heavier equipment than its base class (e.g. allow helmets, medium shields and maybe a wider weapon selection).

Edited May 2, 2015 by Demivrgvs

[janoha]

Stalker's Weapon Proficiencies

Some interesting information on Spears. I see that I have been a bit too dismissive towards them, and that they do have niche roles to fill. I don't understand the point about backstab damage from spears though? A Fighter/thief can't backstab with an axe, so I don't see why a Stalker being able to use a spear, means that he can backstab with it?

Ranger kits armor restrictions

In my current BG:EE game my ranger cannot use the Ankheg Plate, which he should be able to, given that it is a medium armor?

 

Ideally I wanted to get rid of the "advantages/disadvantages" template and go for a "class features" one (KR's paladins are are the only classes using the latter template for now). Btw, the Beastmaster might not even remain the only "case". For example I actually planned to let the Skald use heavier equipment than its base class (e.g. allow helmets, medium shields and maybe a wider weapon selection).

 

I think that is a very sensible approach. I very much like your idea for Skald I think the only thing left to say then, is that you better step up your modding speed, so I can play with more revised classes! (joking of course - take the time you need )

Edited May 2, 2015 by janoha

[janoha]

Stalker backstab

Stalkers backstab multiplier starts at x3, not x2. Tested on BG:EE, only kit revisions installed.

[Shaitan]

Hi

Don't know if it has been reported allready, but the Longstrider spellbook icon is blue on a green background. Not very BGish

[subtledoctor]

Stalker backstab

Stalkers backstab multiplier starts at x3, not x2. Tested on BG:EE, only kit revisions installed.

Probably because EE handles stalker backstabs differently. The TOB engine just applies SPCL332.spl at certain levels in the CLAB file; the EE engine removes them and uses a line in backstab.2da. If KR puts an "increase backstab modifier" effect in the stalker's CLAB then it will double up with the existing modifier.

 

You need to edit backstabbing differently on each engine: APPEND or REPLACE the CLAB entries in the old engine, and SET_2DA_ENTRY in backstab.2da in the new engine.

[janoha]

Ranger Backstab?

 

Hi Demi. If and when you get time to work on KR again, I think you should consider giving the TrueClass Ranger the ability to backstab at x2 around level 5 - which is where thieves hit x3. It could possibly be set at a higher level, but I would like to be able to actually use it in BG1.

 

I like the current implementation of Rangers using light and medium armor very much, but would love to see them get a bit more out of their high stealth scores. Even with this change, the stalker would still be the prime backstabber among rangers - with the ability to backstab from level one and the possibility of advancing beyond x2. As such, I don't think giving a x2 modifier to TrueClass Ranger would invalidate the Stalker at all, which is of course an obvious concern.

 

What do you guys think?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Regular rangers backstabbing... well I could partially see it. They should get a HLA that gives them a bonus damage multiplier for example, in addition to the x2 they would have at some point, just like the Stalker could probably use one.. .. if they already don't have too high one. Maybe appliable on level 25.

[subtledoctor]

Ranger Backstab?

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27573&do=findComment&comment=239490

 

(It's part of my "revised rangers" component.)

[janoha]

I know but it doesn't seem to work for me, and I do overall prefer kit revisions. I am using proficiency overhaul, mage edits and some kits from your mod

 

But I do think that giving rangers backstab is an excellent idea, hence my post. Should probably have credited you though, so sorry for that oversight