Revised Potions

[Demivrgvs]

This is probably necroposting - but - would it be a crazy idea if drinking a potion makes the user "paused" for a brief amount of time? What I really dislike about potions is that they're so powerful that they tend to make all healing spells pretty obsolete. This way, they'd be useful, but not something one would easilly do in the thick of combat ("I've got a Glabrezu behind me, a Pit Fiend at 3 o'clock, but wait unitl I open up the darn bottle... )

I'm sympathetic to this but I fear tweaking it could screw the AI a bit more (especially SCS which relies a lot on potions), don't you think?

 

Generally the potion effects should abide the same rules as spell casting, making them ones per turn and you can't actually cast any other spells or abilities either...

Fortunately this already happens within BG2. When you drink a potion you can't cast spells or special abilities in the same round.

[kreso]

 

This is probably necroposting - but - would it be a crazy idea if drinking a potion makes the user "paused" for a brief amount of time? What I really dislike about potions is that they're so powerful that they tend to make all healing spells pretty obsolete. This way, they'd be useful, but not something one would easilly do in the thick of combat ("I've got a Glabrezu behind me, a Pit Fiend at 3 o'clock, but wait unitl I open up the darn bottle... )

I'm sympathetic to this but I fear tweaking it could screw the AI a bit more (especially SCS which relies a lot on potions), don't you think?

I wasn't thinking pause would be anything long - 1 or 2 seconds, just so that it's slightly unconvinient to use it and not so convinient to run around driking potions when one gets badly hurt.

If they aren't auto-hit when paused like what happens when they're held/stunned, I think this wouldn't break anything.

[Dakk]

 

 

This is probably necroposting - but - would it be a crazy idea if drinking a potion makes the user "paused" for a brief amount of time? What I really dislike about potions is that they're so powerful that they tend to make all healing spells pretty obsolete. This way, they'd be useful, but not something one would easilly do in the thick of combat ("I've got a Glabrezu behind me, a Pit Fiend at 3 o'clock, but wait unitl I open up the darn bottle... )

I'm sympathetic to this but I fear tweaking it could screw the AI a bit more (especially SCS which relies a lot on potions), don't you think?

I wasn't thinking pause would be anything long - 1 or 2 seconds, just so that it's slightly unconvinient to use it and not so convinient to run around driking potions when one gets badly hurt.

If they aren't auto-hit when paused like what happens when they're held/stunned, I think this wouldn't break anything.

 

I'm sympathetic to the idea, but the change is guaranteed to punish the AI way more than the player - especially so for SCS. And I don't think an AI nerf for SCS scripts is a result we're striving for?

 

The BG2/BGT rule of no-other-abilities in the same round as potion I find pretty strict as it is.

[kreso]

I'm sympathetic to the idea, but the change is guaranteed to punish the AI way more than the player - especially so for SCS. And I don't think an AI nerf for SCS scripts is a result we're striving for?

It doesn't punish AI more than the player. Typically, they use 1 pre-buff potion (speed, free action and similar), and have 2 or so healing potions. My front-line PCs usually drink a potion each round prior to HLAs.

AIs don't run away from fights (which is a commonly used "tactic" if you want to call it that) and they do keep AC bonus when paused. I'm playing now with pause set to 2, but I think even 3 seconds won't break anything.

Finally - not all enemies use potions, in fact, those which are "hardest" don't use them at all.

All this would do to AI is tone down mages slightly (imo it's a good thing - they're apsurdly protected anyway - in addition SCS mages love to use healing potions while invisible), fighters won't feel a thing basically.

[Dakk]

You've obviously thought about it / researched it more than I have, I'm purely theorygaming here. And I find the concept interesting.

 

What is the desired effect of pausing ("pause caster"?) the potion drinker btw?

[kreso]

What is the desired effect of pausing ("pause caster"?) the potion drinker btw?

I'm not sure I understand the question. "pause caster" effect is used for example in "aganazar's scorcher" spell - user/caster cannot move or do anything else for the set duration (which can be modified).

[Demivrgvs]

What is the desired effect of pausing ("pause caster"?) the potion drinker btw?

I'm not sure I understand the question. "pause caster" effect is used for example in "aganazar's scorcher" spell - user/caster cannot move or do anything else for the set duration (which can be modified).

@Kreso, can you verify if "pause caster" let the affected creature keep his AC or not? If it does, then I may be persuaded to try it out.

 

@Arda, what do you think about it?

[kreso]

 

@Kreso, can you verify if "pause caster" let the affected creature keep his AC or not? If it does, then I may be persuaded to try it out.

 

I'm positive.

Here's a screenie. Imoen can't score an auto hit, even tough the dwarf just drank a potion and can't do a thing.

Oh, and before taking this into consideration, I'd really like to try this out at higher levels.

P.S.

I should also probably add an "intoxicated" icon while paused....it's not like it's much used anyway:))

[Demivrgvs]

@Kreso, can you verify if "pause caster" let the affected creature keep his AC or not? If it does, then I may be persuaded to try it out.

I'm positive.

Here's a screenie. Imoen can't score an auto hit, even tough the dwarf just drank a potion and can't do a thing.

Oh, and before taking this into consideration, I'd really like to try this out at higher levels.

Man it's so cool to have you as a beta tester.

[Dakk]

 

What is the desired effect of pausing ("pause caster"?) the potion drinker btw?

I'm not sure I understand the question. "pause caster" effect is used for example in "aganazar's scorcher" spell - user/caster cannot move or do anything else for the set duration (which can be modified).

 

Sorry, I was unclear. What is the desired behavior/effect from this change? Ex: a) generally toning down potion power b) making potions less usable in combat c) nerfing AI potion abuse etc. Not a critique question, but a conceptual one.

[kreso]

You're probably correct in all statements, alas I don't think AI really abuses potions - Player controlled characters can (i.e. running in circles, quafing potions one after another etc). - unfortunately, BG engine doesn't really support "attack of oprotunity" feat to punish such endeavors. All this tweak does (as so far in my game, but I really need to try this out in SoA/ToB levels) is punish the player for massive potion (ab)use. One can still use them, and they're very powerful still.

Imo, the most important feat is to make healing spells "better", since they're wildly unused, especially in BG2.

Another option is that instead "pause" using potions sets APR to 0 for the following round - i.e. - you could still move, but one couldn't swing a sword if drank a potion. This I fear would mess with the AI too much.

[Ardanis]

I would consider dropping the movement rate down to 0 instead of pausing, same as crossbow reload.

[kreso]

I would consider dropping the movement rate down to 0 instead of pausing, same as crossbow reload.

May be just me, but I really don't like MS=0.

See this as an example, for 2 seconds after potion was used ms is set to 0. It looks as he is "greased".

 

My proposed change with pause set at 2 seconds - imo, 3 would be better but still...

[kreso]

Is the idea of making buffing potions non-stackable too crazy? How much can one drink before collapsing? Potions are probably the single hardest thing to balance in this game, both for their stacking effects and (within IR) their non-dispellability.

I used to make them dispellable for my game, but they end up being overly nerfed for anybody not having the SI:Abj/Dispel Screen protection.

Hence, I made a little code that does the following:

1) keep all potion effects as they are (non-dispellable)

2) if you drink any potion aside from healing and Oil of Speed (needed to counter slow) while being under effect of one, you loose the benefits of the one you had.

 

Example:

Minsc wants to fight Firkraag, he buffs with Fire Resistance potion. Firk casts Confusion at him. Now he wants to avoid it by drinking Clarity. He does so, but Fire Res potion effects are gone as he drinks it.

Too crazy? It can be fine-tuned...

[Gay Lord]

Apologies if I've missed this, am repeating this, or... whatever.

 

What about the murky potions? Anything being done with them, the murky potions of healing, speed, and antidote? If not, I'd like to propose something that I would love to see.

 

Currently murky potions are used once by a player the first time they play BG, and then never again. What if potions spoil? What if they go bad, or become less effective over time, or are affected by their owner being blasted by fireballs and lightning bolts over and over? What about every time you drink a murky potion you have a variable chance of outcome:

 

50% good effect

25% nothing

25% bad effect

 

So for example, a murky healing potion would heal, do nothing, or harm. Speed would haste, nothing, or slow. Antidote would cure, nothing, or poison. You could even create more types of murky potions, such as murky extra-healing, or maybe murky invisibility.

 

If murky potions are always bad, or 50/50 bad, players won't drink them, so they become pointless. With these percentages, there's a chance THIS drink will be bad, but in the long run you'll have a net gain over time, so there's incentive to keep trying. Some players may reload, but those players usually powergame anyways and so aren't likely to drink them. This would be for purists, and soloers, and no-reload gamers. This would be for gamers who like a richer world, one where potions aren't always 100% awesome, national food and health certified. Potions must go bad at some point, and this would reflect that.

 

What's more, this could be used to replace certain potions in the game. When you meet Xzar, he gives you healing pots. Why? What if they were murky healing pots instead? What about the cave south of Beregost, where a healing pot sits. How long has it been in that damp cave, possibly cracked or seal broken? A murky healing pot seems more logical. Someone at the carnival could sell all the murky potions dirt cheap. I've been watching Lilly Black's LP of BG, and he keeps dying over and over, being constantly poor, hurting for potions. Having murky potions would add some fun to that, like a lottery ticket that might help or hurt you. I play with Hard Times, so money isn't as copious as for other games.