Cure/Cause Wounds & Regenerate Wounds

[Demivrgvs]

This topic will be dedicated to discuss the whole Cure/Cause Wounds serie of spells, and druid's possible variant, Regenerate Wounds.

 

Regenerate Wounds

The title should be a good hint to what I'm going to discuss here. Anyway, this is a very daring suggestion, so daring that even if accepted it might be better to remain an optional component.

 

Short version

Druids get Regenerate Wound spells instead of Cure Wound spells.

 

Long Version

Regenerate Wound spells exist within both AD&D and 3E. Within 3E we actually have two of them, Regenerate Wound spells within druid/ranger's book, Masters of the Wild, and Vigor spells within Complete Divine. Druids get these spells one lvl before clerics (e.g. Regenerate Moderate wounds at 2nd instead of 3rd), while they are supposed to get healing spells one lvl later than clerics (that's true in PnP, not in BG). The whole thing makes sense, because adding fast healing to a creature is indeed more appropriate to a druid, whereas channeling positive energy doesn't even seem appropriate to a druid in the first place.

 

Now my point is probably obvious: adding Regenerate Wound spells for clerics would be both redundant and ineffective because of the higher spell lvl required; at the same time increasing the spell lvl of all healing spells for druids as per PnP would make them ineffective. So, why not making the two class different even in this aspect, making druids use Alteration's fast healing effects, while priests keep Necromancy's healing/harming spells?

 

Spells

For the first 5 spells the replacements are obvious. while to replace Heal instead I'd suggest to let druids get 7th lvl Regeneration one lvl earlier (perhaps making it last less for druids, or more than now for clerics).

 

PnP stats for Regenerate Wounds spells are fine imo, much better than healing spells imo, but we're are going to improve Cure spells to even the odds. What makes these spell good in PnP is their duration, which is 1 turn + 1 round per lvl, and allow them to heal a good amount of hp, unlike CW spells which heal too few hp to matter. For example RLW can restore up to 30hp, compared to CLW's 1d8+5, and RCW can restore up to 120hp, compared to CCW's 4d8+20.

 

Regenerate Light Wounds: 1 hit point per round

Regenerate Moderate Wounds: 2 hit points per round

Regenerate Serious Wounds: 3 hit points per round

Regenerate Critical Wounds: 4 hit points per round

Mass Regenerate: 2 hit points per round (Mass Cure works as a Mass Moderate Wounds)

Regeneration: 6 hit points per round (1hp per second, as it already works)

 

Deciding the duration of these spells will actually help us to decide how much hit poins Cure Wound spells should heal. Balance wise I'd say regenerating spells should restore more hit points (e.g. 1.5x, or even 2x), while curing spells should have the advantage of healing the whole injury in an instant, perhaps even with faster casting time.

After various discussions within this topic I've decided to opt for 1 turn + 2 rounds/lvl, and cap the spells at 10th lvl (the maximum duration and amount of restored hp will be the very same of PnP, spells will simply get to their maximum potential faster).

 

 

Cure Wounds

The following progressions for each Cure Wounds spell are based on one assumption: Cure/Cause Wounds spells should heal/inflict half as much hit points compared to Regenerate Wounds spells. The first time I put them down they looked incredibly insane, but then I realized that capping them at 10th lvl could actually make those values almost perfect. Note that 10th lvl is where classes stop gaining HD's hit points and CON's hp bonus, thus setting the cap there makes really sense imo.

 

Cure Light Wounds: 1d8 + 1/lvl (max +10)

Cure Moderate Wounds: 2d8 + 2/lvl (max +20)

Cure Serious Wounds: 3d8 + 3/lvl (max +30)

Cure Critical Wounds: 4d8 + 4/lvl (max +40)

 

As you can see I've also tried to keep PnP's feel (e.g. CLW uses the very same progression, it's only capped at a higher lvl) instead of replacing the values with very different progressions (e.g. different dices, fixed values, etc.). Last but not least, the above values are also designed to finally make the reverse spells, Cause Wounds, appealing.

 

Cause Wounds

Coming soon.

[F-man]

I approve. I'm going to have both single class cleric and druid in my next party (after IR3 and SR4 have been released) and this idea sounds really interesting.

[Shaitan]

I find it interesting. Must say I will miss the swiftness of a druid casting CLW in BG1.

 

I don't recall it from PnP, on the other hand druids rarely occured in my games.

 

If you do this, the difference will be even bigger between clerics and druids. That's good.

[Ardanis]

Deciding the duration of these spells will actually help us to decide how much hit poins Cure Wound spells should heal. Balance wise I'd say regenerating spells should restore more hit points (e.g. 1.5x), while curing spells should have the advantage of healing the whole injury in an instant, perhaps even with faster casting time.

I suppose this is my cue to post my invented long time ago formula for Cure/Inflict Wounds.

 

2 * spell_level + (caster_level / 2) D (2 * spell_level) - which means 2+1d2*lvl/2 for CLW, 4+1d4*lvl/2 for CMW, etc. Mass version is simply a mass CMW.

Average values for Cure Wounds

Level	1st	3rd	5th	7th	10th	20th
CLW	3.5	5	6.5	8	9.5	17
CMW	-	9	11.5	14	16.5	29
CSW	-	-	16.5	20	23.5	41
CCW	-	-	-	26	30.5	53

 

 

This allows all of them to grow in power along with the caster, and be more or less worth their slot at any caster level. Additionally, Inflict Wounds spells remain comparable to other damage-dealing spells, a longstanding problem present in vanilla game.

 

Several players have pointed out that on levels 1-2 the CLW will heal only 3-4 damage. My counter arguments are:

1) it is not imbalancing CWs, but instead balancing them to other 1st level spells - I think most of us used to fill 1st slots with CLW and nothing else

2) use IR's cheap healing potions

3) this is visible on first levels only, and party can earn them quite fast

 

What makes these spell so good in PnP is their duration, which is 1 turn +1 round per lvl. So RLW can restore up to 20hp, compared to CLW's 1d8+5, and RCW can restore up to 80hp, compared to CCW's 4d8+20.

I think you meant 30 and 120?

10+1/lvl rounds will be double effective against the proposed formula above. Imo that's fair.

[Kalindor]

The whole thing makes sense, because adding fast healing to a creature is indeed more appropriate to a druid, whereas channeling positive energy doesn't even seem appropriate to a druid in the first place.

I agree with the concept. Predictably, I am in favor of this due to its differentiating druids and clerics, as was referenced above by Shaitan. I do have one suggestion, however: Remove Regeneration from clerics. There is no reason why clerics should have both the ultimate instant healing spell (Heal) and the ultimate regeneration spell (Regeneration). Either you should take Regeneration from clerics or give Heal to druids.

 

Regenerate Light Wounds: 1 hit point per round

Regenerate Moderate Wounds: 2 hit points per round

Regenerate Serious Wounds: 3 hit points per round

Regenerate Critical Wounds: 4 hit points per round

Mass Regenerate: 2 hit points per round (Mass Cure works as a Mass Moderate Wounds)

Regeneration: 6 hit points per round (1hp per second, as it already works)

 

What makes these spell so good in PnP is their duration, which is 1 turn +1 round per lvl. So RLW can restore up to 20hp, compared to CLW's 1d8+5, and RCW can restore up to 80hp, compared to CCW's 4d8+20.

I am not sure just by looking at the numbers whether the regeneration spells will be as useful in combat situations as Cure spells. Honestly, Regeneration could cure 3HP/sec and I still am not sure it would be as effective as Heal. 3HP/sec means in 1 round you would restore 18HP. I think in a lot of combat situations you will still be hard-pressed to mitigate a significant fraction of the incoming damage. Fire Giants come to mind... To compensate, I would double (or even triple for the higher level regen spells) the amount healed per round compared to what you have listed. Otherwise, I would make them last 8 hours. Am I insane?

[Shaitan]

I agree on removing Regeneration from clerics.

[Demivrgvs]

Regenerate Wounds progression

@Kalindor, you are forgetting that RW spells can stack with other sources of regeneration coming from potions, innates, or equipment. If RW spells alone could grant so much regeneration to counter most damage during an encounter that would mean these spells are OP, or quite simply that they outshine Cure Wound spells too much. The only advantage of CW spells is the ability to instantly heal an injury during a fight, if RW heals so much hit points to not require any more heals during a fight than RW has no real advantage, becoming inferior in every possible way.

 

RW spells have two huge advantages over CW ones:

1) they can be cast before a fight (they last up to 30 rounds), unlike CW spells which require you to spend a round casting them in the middle of a fight (eventually endangering the cleric, if not risking to lose the spell completely)

2) they restore more hit points

 

Long story short, PnP's regenerating rates for Regenerate Wound spells are already very fine imo, I would never use higher values. What I could imagine is using a slightly longer duration, but surely no more than 5 turns.

 

Cure Wounds spells progression

@Ardanis, I think your table doesn't work very well, at least not for Cure/Cause Light Wounds. It's easier if you use Cause Wound spells to determine a spell's effectiveness. I'll pick for example your CLW progression, and compare it to the most similar 1st lvl spell, Magic Missile. With your suggested table you would have the following situation in terms of damage output:

 

Cause LW vs. Magic Missile

1st: 3.5 - 3.5

3rd: 5 - 7

5th: 6.5 - 10.5

7th: 8 - 14

10th: 9.5 - 17.5

20th: 17 - 17.5

 

Then add that CLW has two main disadvantages, and a lesser third one: it has no range, it allows a save to halve the damage, and hits only once (MM's 5x hits are handy vs. mirror images and to bypass magic resistance) - it even required a hit roll before, making it the most useless spell ever. I do think MM should remain slightly better (it has always been THE 1st lvl spell), but CLW should not look pathetic compared to it.

 

Conclusion, considering MM other advantages, I think CLW should cause at least 1.5x damage compared to MM (thus inflicting +50% dmg on a failed save, and -50% if the target makes the save vs spell). Don't you agree?

 

Last but not least, MM's dmg output is capped at 9th lvl, whereas we are suggesting to make CLW to scale up to 20th caster lvl. It might seem a problem balance wise, but it's not imo, because later on the save vs. spell to halve CLW dmg will be progressively easier, thus CLW actually needs to gain more dmg potential to remain good, whereas MM (not having a save) doesn't get any weaker later on.

 

Cleric's Regeneration

In theory I'd agree to remove the Regeneration from clerics, but SCS makes clerics use this spell, thus I can't. That being said, as long as druids get it at 6th lvl while clerics keep it as a 7th lvl spell I think it's fine, no?

[Ardanis]

Cause LW vs. Magic Missile

1) You have messed the comparison, MM does 3.5 - 7 - 10.5 - 14 - 17.5 damage.

2) Also MM itself is a very powerful spell.

3) I'd expect wizard spells to be slightly superior anyway.

4) I thought Wounds have no save?

[Demivrgvs]

Cause LW vs. Magic Missile

1) You have messed the comparison, MM does 3.5 - 7 - 10.5 - 14 - 17.5 damage.

2) Also MM itself is a very powerful spell.

3) I'd expect wizard spells to be slightly superior anyway.

4) I thought Wounds have no save?

1) Damn. Fixed.

2) Indeed.

3) I said myself that MM should remain the better spell, but if CLW doesn't even cause the same dmg then it's inferior in every possible way (lower dmg, less range, allows a save, single hit), too much imo, no?

4) They have in PnP. If you remember we discarded the idea of making them not allow a save because that would be problematic for the higher lvl CW spells (e.g. Critical Wounds without a save would be very OP imo), and inconsistent with 6th lvl Harm spell.

[Salk]

I buy especially Demi's point 3) when discussing CLW vs MM.

 

Said that, I am also for removing regenerate health from clerics but I understand you want to keep compatibility with SCS. DavidW has been away so long now but I hope he'll be back to refine further the synergy between your mod and his.

[Ardanis]

Perhaps use die/level progression, reaching max at 10th level? With the save that's pretty much what acrane spells have at this point.

 

Healing such amount on 10th level is... fine, as I see it now. Clerics can heal a good portion of damage and yet have other spells memorized.

 

DavidW has been away so long now but I hope he'll be back to refine further the synergy between your mod and his.

Yeah, his opinion is very missed sometimes.

[JosephJohnson]

This sounds really good for further differentiating Druids and Clerics. I agree with Kalindor and others that Clerics should have Regeneration removed. I know what you said about SCS but you also said roleplaying be damned was blasphemy. hehe Honestly it isn't that important for Clerics to have it removed though, mostly for flavor and consistency.

 

Cause Wound spells have always been useless to me. Honestly, the only way I'd ever consider using them is if the amount of damage was the same as its respective cure spell but then that might me overpowered.

[Lawlight]

First of all, I like the whole regenerate vs cure wounds suggestion a lot. While I think that clerics should have Regenration removed then, I understand your motives to keep it. My suggestion would be to allow druids to use Heal one level later than clerics in exchange (7th lvl).

[Demivrgvs]

Druid's Heal and Cleric's Regeneration

First of all, I like the whole regenerate vs cure wounds suggestion a lot. While I think that clerics should have Regenration removed then, I understand your motives to keep it. My suggestion would be to allow druids to use Heal one level later than clerics in exchange (7th lvl).

I'm actually tempted to do that indeed. Looking at SCS code we know it makes druids and clerics use both spells, thus to avoid the "AI can cast a spell players cannot cast" issue I'd make these two spells available to both classes but at different spell levels. After all, that means making them work as per PnP, it cannot be so bad, no?

 

Regenerate Wounds duration

Deciding this is the base for everything else imo (aka Cure/Cause Wounds stats). The thing is, when it comes to determine the total amount of restored hit points, PnP duration of 10 rounds +1/lvl (thus up to 3 turns) seems really enough, but due to the slow regeneration rate for these spells some players think it's not that great. I'm thus tempted to suggest making them last 10 rounds +2/lvl (up to 5 turns), which is the current duration of SR's 7th lvl Regeneration spell. Now, on one side I'm concerned about the incredibly high amount of hit points these spell would restore (at very high levels) with such a long duration, on the other hand it may still be fine considering it's far from an instant heal. Last but not least, multiple regenerating spells don't stack (though they can stack with all other sources of regeneration), thus while a cleric can quickly heal casting a bunch of healing spells in a row, druids won't be able to do that with regenerating spells.

 

Regenerate spell - hp healed with PnP duration at 20th caster level - suggested improvement

Light Wounds: 30 hit points within 30 rounds - 50 hit points within 50 rounds

Moderate Wounds: 60 hit points within 30 rounds - 100 hit points within 50 rounds

Serious Wounds: 90 hit points within 30 rounds - 150 hit points within 50 rounds

Critical Wounds: 120 hit points within 30 rounds - 200 hit points within 50 rounds

 

What do you think? Too much?

 

After deciding this I'll be ready to post a huge topic I've already prepared on Cure Wounds spells and their reverse Cause Wounds spells.

[Kalindor]

These values are fine with me. I personally think the rate is more important than the maximum. After a battle, I am going to rest anyway and will almost never cast regeneration and then wait it out. Will these spells automatically heal the party on rest like Cure spells do?