Dispel/Remove topic (continued from SCS forum)

[cipher]

Why aren't you using subtledoctor's Breachier Breach??

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27291&page=2&do=findComment&comment=237941

Because I'm trying out the beta and it wouldn't be much of a feedback if I based it on my tweaked version of the mod.

[kreso]

An alternate solution (and one I'd actually like & code myself if neccecary) is this:

- both Chaotic Commands & Death Ward are "non-detectable" by AI (example of why I think this is good: a character with Death Ward will *never* get hit by Finger of Death; which pretty much ruins the "job" of this spell in the first place). I'm well aware of AI limitations with this, but see further:

- each attack vs them (Charm Person, Confusion etc. vs ChaoticCommands; Finger of Death/Disintegrate etc. vs Death Ward) has about 50% (or 100%?) chance to "remove it".

 

I think this would lead to a much more immersive & exciting gameplay than what SCS currently offers.

I've started to work on this. The formula I use is (spell level X 10) = probability.

Hence, Dire Charm (level 3) has a 30% chance of removing Chaotic Commands.

PW:Stun (level 7) has a 70% chance of CC removal.

Toughts? Too much, too little? Note that implementation is the same as "AoE Dispel Screen" - 1st attack is always "absorbed", even if it removes protection.

I'm personally divided between the above formula and (spell level X 10)/2 = probability - my guess is that this would work better overall....?? (i.e. PW:Stun would have 35% chance to remove CC)

Note that with this, Chaotic Commands is no longer removed by Breach. It can be made so, however that defeats the whole purpose of what I'm doing here. Likewise, AI will use spells even if a character is protected via spell.

 

I did find some bad things about my implementation (I have to use 146 with a custom spell for each attack vs CCommands; the spell must have a spell power of 0 so it doesn't burn Deflections, but Deflections must protect vs it.....) so now I mingled up a code that patches all Deflection-type spells with 206 vs my custom spell.

 

I'll make the same for two more spells - Death Ward & Free Action.

This will apply only to spells, not innate abilities like Mind Flayer blast and similar. (should it?)

I recon that with a spell power of 5, (50% chance to remove CC) Ilithids would actually become worth those 19K XP you get for killing them!

[toxin]

Here it is, link.

 

...

Let me know if it works correctly.

Hi kreso, I got the following error when I tried installing it:

 

[F:\Steam\SteamApps\common\Baldur's Gate II Enhanced Edition\setup-dispels.exe] WeiDU version 23800

Using Language [English]

Using .\lang\en_us/dialog.tlk

Install Component [AoE Dispelling Screen]?

nstall, or [N]ot Install or [Q]uit? i

Installing [AoE Dispelling Screen] [1]

Copying 1 file ...

Copying 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying 1 file ...

Appending to files ...

Added MSECTYPE.2DA Dispel

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

Copying and patching 1 file ...

ERROR locating resource for 'COPY'

Resource [wand18a.spl] not found in KEY file:

[./chitin.key]

Stopping installation because of error.

Stopping installation because of error.

ERROR Installing [AoE Dispelling Screen], rolling back to previous state

Will uninstall 19 files for [DISPELS/DISPELS.TP2] component 0.

Uninstalled 19 files for [DISPELS/DISPELS.TP2] component 0.

ERROR: Failure("resource [wand18a.spl] not found for 'COPY'")

PLEASE email the file SETUP-DISPELS.DEBUG to akbugger@gmail.com

Using Language [English]

 

Perhaps it's because I don't have IR installed?

 

The DEBUG file is here: http://pastebin.com/kTCGP69b

My WEIDU log is here: http://pastebin.com/VWjR252g

 

Thanks

 

BTW - is there a way to "remember"/export weidu mod component installation selections? It can take a long time to review wach and every component in each mod and select whether to install it or not (and sometimes select a variation if installing). Some file that would "remember" these choices and can serve as input to the installer would be really great. I guess it could be done with stdin redirection (e.g. setup-foo.exe < input.exe) but that's a hack that can go horribly wrong if some of the options are changes, or some error occurs, etc.

 

[kreso]

Perhaps it's because I don't have IR installed?

Kind of. It's got more to do with:

a) original wand of spell striking mimicking effects

b) me being an idiot and not including a check if IR is installed before

 

Anyhow, open up dispels/components/dispels.tpa file and comment out the code below:

 

COPY_EXISTING ~wand18a.spl~ ~override~

LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT

INT_VAR

opcode = 221

target = 2

power = 0

parameter1 = 9

parameter2 = EVALUATE_BUFFER %sectype_dispel%

timing = 1

header = 1

insert_point = 1

END

BUT_ONLY

 

So it looks like this:

 

 

// COPY_EXISTING ~wand18a.spl~ ~override~

LPF ADD_SPELL_EFFECT

INT_VAR

opcode = 221

target = 2

power = 0

parameter1 = 9

parameter2 = EVALUATE_BUFFER %sectype_dispel%

timing = 1

header = 1

insert_point = 1

END

BUT_ONLY //

 

 

 

Note, this will make wand of spellstrike Breach *not* remove fake Dispel Screen; but enemies don't use it so it's not a big deal.

[Mike1072]

Are you aware of WeiDU's various command line options?

 

--force-install-list 10 20 30

--skip-at-view

--language 0

 

Pass all those to setup-somemod.exe and you will install components 10, 20, and 30 using the first language (usually English) and you won't be asked about viewing the readme.

 

Other handy options:

 

--uninstall

--force-uninstall-list 20 30

--reinstall

[toxin]

Anyhow, open up dispels/components/dispels.tpa file and comment out the code below:

 

Are you sure this is the correct comment syntax? Because it complained about it when I tried installing (maybe it's /* */ like in c++?). Anyway I just deleted that section and it installed without errors. Will report when I have some experience with it.

 

Are you aware of WeiDU's various command line options?

 

I am now, thanks

 

I take it the component IDs are what I see when I run weidu.exe --list-components foo\setup-foo.tp2 0?

 

Also, will it work for multiple-selection components such as the SCS Inquisitor dispel component when you have to choose between X1.5 and X1 spell level? It seems to me like it should, as each sub-component apparently gets its own ID, but for some reason I see the input redirection trick still being used: http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/topic,27420.0/nowap.html

 

Finally, wouldn't I be better off simply using Big World Setup? I gather it supports EE...

[subtledoctor]

maybe it's /* */

Yes.

 

wouldn't I be better off simply using Big World Setup? I gather it supports EE...

Some people like it. It's not for me. And it does not include SR 4/IRv4 (of course, because they are private beta) or my own mods (yet) and it seems very inflexible as far as inserting mods into the load order. So, it's not for me.

[toxin]

Some people like it. It's not for me. And it does not include SR 4/IRv4 (of course, because they are private beta) or my own mods (yet) and it seems very inflexible as far as inserting mods into the load order. So, it's not for me.

 

Yeah, I guess you're right.

So how do you manage your mod preferences? Do you keep your own batch files with --force-install-list ?

[kreso]

 

Anyhow, open up dispels/components/dispels.tpa file and comment out the code below:

 

Are you sure this is the correct comment syntax? Because it complained about it when I tried installing (maybe it's /* */ like in c++?). Anyway I just deleted that section and it installed without errors. Will report when I have some experience with it.

Yeah...

 

b) me being an idiot

....

Using /* was the very first thing I learned to do in Weidu.

 

Deleting the code will also work, naturally.

[toxin]

LOL, as a fellow software developer for many years trust me when I tell you we are all idiots

[subtledoctor]

 

Some people like it. It's not for me. And it does not include SR 4/IRv4 (of course, because they are private beta) or my own mods (yet) and it seems very inflexible as far as inserting mods into the load order. So, it's not for me.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

So how do you manage your mod preferences? Do you keep your own batch files with --force-install-list ?

 

I keep mods organized by install order, and do a full routine every time I re-install.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86011511/BGT%20mods.png

 

I re-install very, very, very rarely.

[toxin]

I keep mods organized by install order, and do a full routine every time I re-install.

https://dl.dropboxus...11/BGT mods.png

I re-install very, very, very rarely.

 

 

Dude, you are crazy

But seriously, seeing as install order has to be preserved, and you have something like 50 mods then say SR then another 50 mods and a new SR beta (or even RTM) comes out, you are kind of forced to uninstall 50 mods, install the new SR, then reinstall those 50 mods are you not? It looks like batch files could really go a long way here. Considering the time they save, they should probably be backed up too

 

BTW I noticed you have ascension there - I'm assuming you're not using EE? Because I gather only BP-ImprovedAscension is compatible with EE, at the cost of not being so compatible with SCS... Did I get it right?

[subtledoctor]

That's my BGT game that I actually play - I don't reinstall that for new betas. The last reinstall was back in February. It currently has an early beta of SRv4, and SoB v2.8 or something. I've stopped playing the game, now I'm just developing. In a little while when my new mod is ready, I'll remove SoB, replace it with F&P and M&G, slot in the most recent betas of SR and IR, and then do a full clean install. And then I won't touch it for a year or so.

 

For testing and new betas, I use BGEE and IWDEE.

[Demivrgvs]

Ooook, after spending like 1 hour reading again this topic and the original one on SCS forums I'll try to summarize the whole discussion:

- most players consider Remove Magic overpowered and I agree, especially considering it's just a 3rd lvl spell

- Dispel Magic is never used by the AI and the only niche it offers is dispelling debuffs on allies (*)

- dispelling a single buff per character as per PnP isn't implementable

- it has been suggested to add a "party-wide dispel protection spell" (has anyone tested Kreso's Mass Dispelling Screen?) but there's no such thing in PnP and I'm not sure it would fix the root of the problem

 

Possible solutions...

 

1) Make Remove Magic single target, reduce Dispel Magic AoE from 30' to 20'

Balance wise this would be the best imo, but I've been told that sometimes SCS AI cast RM on itself, for example to counter vanilla's ProUndead Scroll. IR removes the exploitable "invisibility" status from that scroll but I don't know if that eliminate any instance of SCS using RM on itself probably not, can anyone confirm/test it?

 

2) Reduce Remove Magic AoE from 30' to 20'

Is the reduced AoE enough to balance RM? I'm not sure, but it surely helps.

 

3) Make Dispel Magic single target

This would differentiate the two spells a bit more and make DM easier to use for the above mentioned niche (*) but with SR we already have a single target tool to counter most debuffs, Break Enchantment, and it's even better for that job because it doesn't involve a % chance. All (correct me if I'm wrong please) the effects Break Enchantment doesn't handle can be countered with different stuff (e.g. Haste vs Slow, Vocalize vs Silence, etc.) albeit you need a priest for quite a few (e.g. Cure Diseases, Neutralize Poisons, Restoration, etc.).
Overall, I think Dispel magic would lose a lot of its mojo without keeping at least a medium AoE.

 

4) Reduce both spells AoE from 30' to 20'

Not much to say here, it's the "safe small nerf". Today's build will have this unless I change it today before uploading.

 

5) Merge the two spells aka hide Dispel Magic, rename Remove Magic as such while reducing its AoE from 30' to 20'

What none of the above solutions handle and bothers me is that Remove Magic never existed in PnP and I hate overlapping spells. Furthermore, at this levels Abjurers have Spell Thrust too (3 "removals" at the same level within the same school, 2 of which alsmot identical - YAY!) on top of really important spells such as ProMissile (SCS loves this), Minor Spell Deflection and Non-detection (which is SI:Div within V4!). No mage will pick DM over RM imo.

That being said, I'm not yet convinced on this change because it would completely remove the concept of "dispelling debuffs" from the game. It would be perfect imo if I could keep it not-friendly, but as discussed above I fear I cannot.

 

On a side note, 5) would also make priest's Dispel Magic a more powerful offensive tool imo (not sure if it's a good thing or a bad one).

[toxin]

I'm playing with Kreso's Mass Dispelling Screen and as far as I can tell it's working great. Thanks Kreso!

It could make for a great addition to SR, though I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Have the same protection for the mage that cast it, it's a bit inconsistent to confer different protections for the caster and the party - no other spell that I can think of does that. I understand that may nerf it for the AI so I don't care if the AI keeps using the current single-target variant. The AI issue may also be mitigated by:
2. Scale the spell up in levels. At least in duration (turn/lvl?) but possibly in the number of Dispel charges it can absorb (a la spell deflection).

There may not be a PnP equivalent but then again we can't implement DM like it is in PnP (3.5) so I say fight fire with fire. It may not fix the root of the problem but it's a big step in the right direction, and may be the best course of action given the limitations (most notably AI).

 

I would love to see DM/RM single target but like you said the AI seems to rely on it. I never use ProUndead and I remember at least one time where a mage cast it on a Mordenkainen's Sword it summoned. I think I had improved invisibility on at the time, so maybe that was what triggered it.

 

Personally I don't care for dispelling debuffs anyway. It's much more strategic to combat specific debuffs with specific removal spells - haste against slow, remove paralysis against hold, etc. To be honest if it were up to me I'd remove both DM and RM completely from the game (it's just too generic and powerful) but of course we can't (again, AI).

 

Regarding the side note, I believe making priest spells more powerful in general is a good thing for balance, seeing as mages are generally far more powerful (especially in the high levels).

 

So to sum up my ramblings my vote goes for option (5) + Kreso's Mass Dispelling Screen (preferably modified to scale in levels).